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> Everyone needs to agree that starting a nuclear war is bad. You would likely want to stop China from shooting nuclear missiles at San Francisco. Yet I doubt t

> Everyone needs to agree that starting a nuclear war is bad. You would likely want to stop China from shooting nuclear missiles at San Francisco. Yet I doubt that when you insist on this narrative, you would think of yourself as being tyrannical. Extreme examples work, because you can actually count on the people reading your comment to agree with you. But you can't extrapolate towards less universally held examples that you happen to believe in; someone who requires everyone to agree about what's done with trees on your own property could well be considered tyrranical. > One of the best observations about why people in urban areas are more liberal, and rural areas are more conservative, has to do with the idea that when you are around more people, you need more rules to guide how to interact with one another. That's a cool observation that I'll keep in mind. However, in my experience, it's not been the primary reason. Rather, it has seemed to me that rural folks live closer to nature than urban folks, and have often had firsthand experience that mother nature tends to be nasty and brutish (or just check out r/natureismetal). That's an experience which tends to create what they would consider (IMHO) a much more pragmatic idea of what it takes to survive in the world.

guntars 5y ago
> Rather, it has seemed to me that rural folks live closer to nature than urban folks, and have often had firsthand experience that mother nature tends to be nasty and brutish. That's an interesting interpretation. To me, what's more nasty and brutish than a fellow man? I always thought the divide was explained by how in the country everyone knows everyone and have repeated interactions with the same people. It's prisoners dilemma, but the game doesn't end. Who needs rules when you can all punish somebody for an offense (like being gay)?
- generalizations 5y ago
  > Who needs rules when you can all punish somebody for an offense (like being gay)? That's a...fairly prejudiced generalization you've made there.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Yeah, well... 1) At least they didn't choose that very word for their user id. 2) Old proverb about echoes: "As you call into the woods, so they answer back". All you've written so far sums up to pretty much exactly that generalisation.
nouveaux 5y ago
"someone who requires everyone to agree about what's done with trees on your own property could well be considered tyrranical." 100% agree with the example of someone's tree on their 200 acre farm. However, if I have a dying tree that's a risk to falling on my neighbor's house, it would far less tyrannical for the neighbor to force me to remove the tree through the government. Proximity to others plays a big role.
- generalizations 5y ago
  > it would far less tyrannical for the neighbor to force me to remove the tree through the government The neighbor wouldn't be the tyrannical one. And, there's better solutions - put the liability for the tree on the person whose property it's on. That's a fair assignment of responsibility. I do think it would be tyrannical for the government to declare that all trees must be removed if they meet certain criteria.
  - Frondo 5y ago
    Why is liability -- which can only kick in after some damage has been done, possibly displacing someone from their home -- a better solution than a process by which dying/dead trees can be compelled to be removed? This sounds like the usual libertarian answer to things like "eliminate government food safety inspection"; the idea being that the market would eventually reflect that some restaurants regularly sicken people and would then go out of business. Why is it better to let people be sickened, even if they can later sue, than put some stops up on risky behavior in the first place? For both tree hazards and food safety, it's not a surprise when something is risky, even if you can't predict exactly when someone will have their house smashed by a falling tree. Why wait for the damage to be done?
    - georgewsinger 5y ago
      > Why is it better to let people be sickened, even if they can later sue, than put some stops up on risky behavior in the first place? Consequentialist reason: you don't put barriers and friction in front of (e.g.) biotech and drug innovation. See the pandemic for this (FDA has killed approximately a million people alone by preventing covid vaccines from being available in the market sooner). Deontological reason: you don't have the right to tell people what they can and can't do with their own bodies (w.r.t. products they want to consume, at their own risk, etc). There's also regulatory capture, which reliably and predictably occurs in mixed economies (see e.g. public choice economics).
htek 5y ago
>That's a cool observation that I'll keep in mind. However, in my experience, it's not been the primary reason. Rather, it has seemed to me that rural folks live closer to nature than urban folks, and have often had firsthand experience that mother nature tends to be nasty and brutish (or just check out r/natureismetal). That's an experience which tends to create what they would consider (IMHO) a much more pragmatic idea of what it takes to survive in the world. My experience, having come from Appalachian stock and escaping to New York City, is that urbanites are more open to new experiences and ideas, they see different people and slices of their culture all the time. They are more likely to go to college, further increasing their experience of new ideas. Rural folk are insulated from the world outside the area they live in. They're mired in conservatism and the past. They suffer from brain drain because most people, once they've been exposed to fresh ideas and people via college, tend to become more "worldly" and don't necessarily want to return to their one stop sign town with its extremely limited social life, culture, and job prospects. They often never master their fear of the other, because they see everyone who is not them AS the other.
- stevetodd 5y ago
  I see it more as idealism vs pragmatism. We need both. I think older people tend to be conservative because they've become jaded by idealists and/or politics in general. To many, conservatism is that government and politics screw everything up, so we need less of it.
  - iostream23 5y ago
    “ To many, conservatism is that government and politics screw everything up, so we need less of it.” Which is a point of view funded by the large corporations actually funding the political screwups and bribing the politicians, particularly the ones who pretend to be conservative. (I.e. Manchin or McConnell) Rural voters received their messaging primarily through TV and radio, and then go down to the local bar and regurgitate it to each other with lots of “good ole, good ole, ye olde goode ole” and self congratulation. I’ve noticed this pattern in rural areas around the world. I see the rural urban divide as more fundamental than the national divisions. Closer to nature? Yeah, but in a frontline of battle antagonistic sort of way, conquer the big scary nature, even the person referencing the above had a human vs nature framing. I’ve been burned out of my house in bushfires, wrestled with solar panels in hurricanes and I’ll still call the most dangerous thing on earth a group of self assured humans doing their job.
toiletfuneral 5y ago
I’m from a rural area and this is laughable bullshit
CRConrad 5y ago
> Rather, it has seemed to me that rural folks live closer to nature than urban folks, and have often had firsthand experience that mother nature tends to be nasty and brutish WTF does that have to do with anything? The vast majority of humanity doesn't, as you so astutely observed, live anywhere near nature. So nature being "nasty and brutish" is absolutely irrelevant to most people. This deep insight you seem to think rural people have is not so much insight as delusion. > That's an experience which tends to create what they would consider (IMHO) a much more pragmatic idea of what it takes to survive in the world. Sure, if you're a Real Outdoorsman™ you have a better chance of surviving being plonked down naked and alone in the middle of the jungle. But who lives in a world where that's relevant in any way? (A: Conservatives, in their fantasy world.)

guntars 5y ago

> Rather, it has seemed to me that rural folks live closer to nature than urban folks, and have often had firsthand experience that mother nature tends to be nasty and brutish. That's an interesting interpretation. To me, what's more nasty and brutish than a fellow man? I always thought the divide was explained by how in the country everyone knows everyone and have repeated interactions with the same people. It's prisoners dilemma, but the game doesn't end. Who needs rules when you can all punish somebody for an offense (like being gay)?

generalizations 5y ago
> Who needs rules when you can all punish somebody for an offense (like being gay)? That's a...fairly prejudiced generalization you've made there.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Yeah, well... 1) At least they didn't choose that very word for their user id. 2) Old proverb about echoes: "As you call into the woods, so they answer back". All you've written so far sums up to pretty much exactly that generalisation.

nouveaux 5y ago

"someone who requires everyone to agree about what's done with trees on your own property could well be considered tyrranical." 100% agree with the example of someone's tree on their 200 acre farm. However, if I have a dying tree that's a risk to falling on my neighbor's house, it would far less tyrannical for the neighbor to force me to remove the tree through the government. Proximity to others plays a big role.

generalizations 5y ago
> it would far less tyrannical for the neighbor to force me to remove the tree through the government The neighbor wouldn't be the tyrannical one. And, there's better solutions - put the liability for the tree on the person whose property it's on. That's a fair assignment of responsibility. I do think it would be tyrannical for the government to declare that all trees must be removed if they meet certain criteria.
- Frondo 5y ago
  Why is liability -- which can only kick in after some damage has been done, possibly displacing someone from their home -- a better solution than a process by which dying/dead trees can be compelled to be removed? This sounds like the usual libertarian answer to things like "eliminate government food safety inspection"; the idea being that the market would eventually reflect that some restaurants regularly sicken people and would then go out of business. Why is it better to let people be sickened, even if they can later sue, than put some stops up on risky behavior in the first place? For both tree hazards and food safety, it's not a surprise when something is risky, even if you can't predict exactly when someone will have their house smashed by a falling tree. Why wait for the damage to be done?
  - georgewsinger 5y ago
    > Why is it better to let people be sickened, even if they can later sue, than put some stops up on risky behavior in the first place? Consequentialist reason: you don't put barriers and friction in front of (e.g.) biotech and drug innovation. See the pandemic for this (FDA has killed approximately a million people alone by preventing covid vaccines from being available in the market sooner). Deontological reason: you don't have the right to tell people what they can and can't do with their own bodies (w.r.t. products they want to consume, at their own risk, etc). There's also regulatory capture, which reliably and predictably occurs in mixed economies (see e.g. public choice economics).

htek 5y ago

>That's a cool observation that I'll keep in mind. However, in my experience, it's not been the primary reason. Rather, it has seemed to me that rural folks live closer to nature than urban folks, and have often had firsthand experience that mother nature tends to be nasty and brutish (or just check out r/natureismetal). That's an experience which tends to create what they would consider (IMHO) a much more pragmatic idea of what it takes to survive in the world. My experience, having come from Appalachian stock and escaping to New York City, is that urbanites are more open to new experiences and ideas, they see different people and slices of their culture all the time. They are more likely to go to college, further increasing their experience of new ideas. Rural folk are insulated from the world outside the area they live in. They're mired in conservatism and the past. They suffer from brain drain because most people, once they've been exposed to fresh ideas and people via college, tend to become more "worldly" and don't necessarily want to return to their one stop sign town with its extremely limited social life, culture, and job prospects. They often never master their fear of the other, because they see everyone who is not them AS the other.

stevetodd 5y ago
I see it more as idealism vs pragmatism. We need both. I think older people tend to be conservative because they've become jaded by idealists and/or politics in general. To many, conservatism is that government and politics screw everything up, so we need less of it.
- iostream23 5y ago
  “ To many, conservatism is that government and politics screw everything up, so we need less of it.” Which is a point of view funded by the large corporations actually funding the political screwups and bribing the politicians, particularly the ones who pretend to be conservative. (I.e. Manchin or McConnell) Rural voters received their messaging primarily through TV and radio, and then go down to the local bar and regurgitate it to each other with lots of “good ole, good ole, ye olde goode ole” and self congratulation. I’ve noticed this pattern in rural areas around the world. I see the rural urban divide as more fundamental than the national divisions. Closer to nature? Yeah, but in a frontline of battle antagonistic sort of way, conquer the big scary nature, even the person referencing the above had a human vs nature framing. I’ve been burned out of my house in bushfires, wrestled with solar panels in hurricanes and I’ll still call the most dangerous thing on earth a group of self assured humans doing their job.

toiletfuneral 5y ago

I’m from a rural area and this is laughable bullshit

CRConrad 5y ago

> Rather, it has seemed to me that rural folks live closer to nature than urban folks, and have often had firsthand experience that mother nature tends to be nasty and brutish WTF does that have to do with anything? The vast majority of humanity doesn't, as you so astutely observed, live anywhere near nature. So nature being "nasty and brutish" is absolutely irrelevant to most people. This deep insight you seem to think rural people have is not so much insight as delusion. > That's an experience which tends to create what they would consider (IMHO) a much more pragmatic idea of what it takes to survive in the world. Sure, if you're a Real Outdoorsman™ you have a better chance of surviving being plonked down naked and alone in the middle of the jungle. But who lives in a world where that's relevant in any way? (A: Conservatives, in their fantasy world.)