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There is no darkness in the world of FOSS, it's an actual, currently functioning, computing utopian dream. Let Caeser have his awful stuff. We can all push for

There is no darkness in the world of FOSS, it's an actual, currently functioning, computing utopian dream. Let Caeser have his awful stuff. We can all push for fun, and free computing.

npteljes 5y ago
I agree, I honestly feel like the FOSS world is tech's last bastion when it comes to this stuff. There's a lot of bullshit too but it's nowhere near the mass surveilled dark-pattern galore the current tech era is.
- HeckFeck 5y ago
  SystemD and the Gnome file picker don't look so bad now, do they? At least Pottering isn't trying to extort loans from me when I start/stop a service.
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    The Gnome file picker doesn't look better. It's their competition that looks worse.
throw10920 5y ago
> it's an actual, currently functioning, computing utopian dream False. The FOSS software that I personally use is less useful (on a practical technical level) on average than its technical equivalents. And beyond my specific tools (which I admit could just be the bad parts of FOSS), FOSS software is near-universally bad (along with almost every other piece of software I've touched - this isn't a condemnation of FOSS, only a pointing out of the fact that it's not good, just better), and nowhere close to a "computing utopian dream". The amount of issues that I've found in open-source software wouldn't fit in a blog post, let alone an HN comment (although if anyone really wants I could provide a sampling). You can say that some pieces of FOSS are better than their proprietary equivalents in a technical sense, sure - but I've never actually found a single piece of software, FOSS or not, that is anywhere close to "utopian" (or barely even "functioning").
- okamiueru 5y ago
  > but I've never actually found a single piece of software, FOSS or not, that is anywhere close to "utopian" (or barely even "functioning"). Probably because of which fields you work in. But in software development, I'd say it is almost exclusively the case all over the board. If you work in digital arts, then Blender is probably the best end-user application example I can think of.
  - throw10920 5y ago
    Can you specify some specific pieces of software-development software that you consider to be "utopian"? I'm a software developer and have used the following pieces of software that were very non-utopian: gcc gdb sbcl vim emacs vscode atom tmux bash fish make cmake automake autotools m4 cpython pip mypy pyinstaller firefox gradle ant sbt chisel npm qmk (that is - everything I've touched). I also know that virtually everything related to webdev is just straight-up awful. I've also used Blender and can testify from personal experience that it's bad. What else is there?
    - okamiueru 5y ago
      To clarify, when you say these are "non-utopian", it would help to know what that means to you. I honestly think blender is a technical marvel that in many cases is better than its proprietary counterparts. The bar is quite high for these kinds of specialised and very expensive software. So, if blender is "bad", then perhaps the bar is set so high, that I don't think I can give a satisfactory answer. "Utopian" in that there is nothing that could be better or improved is a higher bar than what I had in mind. But, just "better or equal than its proprietary counterparts", I do feel there are examples. Linux itself being a very clear one. There is a reason why it's the most used operating system by a mile (something like 90-98%). More contentiously I would also include it for desktop use. Hmm, perhaps AOSP also. Out of the many tools you've mentioned, I've used most of them as well, and I don't consider any of them particularly great. But, what are the closed source alternatives that are better? Perhaps also fish, as I cannot think of a better proprietary shell. Powershell and its windows integration is uaf. Maybe some of my examples are skewed by the value I place on it not being controlled by corporate interests. That my usage isn't profiled, that I'm not exposed to dark patterns for KPIs at some board meeting.
GekkePrutser 5y ago
Agreed. I run KDE on FreeBSD and it's so amazing to have it do what I want, not what some company wants. I feel the same about a lot of apps in F-Droid now. Sometimes their functionality is not as complete or they're not as polished as their Google Play counterparts. But the ad/crapware and mandatory logins that is included in those apps take away a lot of usability now. At that point I gladly give up some polish for a 2MB app that is fast and does just what I need over a bloated 100MB app with stupid animations, ads and tracking. My battery loves it too.
okamiueru 5y ago
I could not agree more. It's almost baffling to see the constant frustration of closed operating systems, and then outright rejecting Linux as an alternative, as if stuck one some preconception that it is bad. I've regularly used all three, and from my point of view, they are not even close to being equal. It's the only platform where I can start my day, and reliably get to work, without any unexpected fuckery wasting half my day. The only thing that causes a comparatively bad experience on Linux is in part software availability or driver related, neither of which is the fault of the operating system itself.

There is no darkness in the world of FOSS, it's an actual, currently functioning, computing utopian dream. Let Caeser have his awful stuff. We can all push for fun, and free computing.

npteljes 5y ago

I agree, I honestly feel like the FOSS world is tech's last bastion when it comes to this stuff. There's a lot of bullshit too but it's nowhere near the mass surveilled dark-pattern galore the current tech era is.

HeckFeck 5y ago
SystemD and the Gnome file picker don't look so bad now, do they? At least Pottering isn't trying to extort loans from me when I start/stop a service.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  The Gnome file picker doesn't look better. It's their competition that looks worse.

throw10920 5y ago

> it's an actual, currently functioning, computing utopian dream False. The FOSS software that I personally use is less useful (on a practical technical level) on average than its technical equivalents. And beyond my specific tools (which I admit could just be the bad parts of FOSS), FOSS software is near-universally bad (along with almost every other piece of software I've touched - this isn't a condemnation of FOSS, only a pointing out of the fact that it's not good, just better), and nowhere close to a "computing utopian dream". The amount of issues that I've found in open-source software wouldn't fit in a blog post, let alone an HN comment (although if anyone really wants I could provide a sampling). You can say that some pieces of FOSS are better than their proprietary equivalents in a technical sense, sure - but I've never actually found a single piece of software, FOSS or not, that is anywhere close to "utopian" (or barely even "functioning").

okamiueru 5y ago
> but I've never actually found a single piece of software, FOSS or not, that is anywhere close to "utopian" (or barely even "functioning"). Probably because of which fields you work in. But in software development, I'd say it is almost exclusively the case all over the board. If you work in digital arts, then Blender is probably the best end-user application example I can think of.
- throw10920 5y ago
  Can you specify some specific pieces of software-development software that you consider to be "utopian"? I'm a software developer and have used the following pieces of software that were very non-utopian: gcc gdb sbcl vim emacs vscode atom tmux bash fish make cmake automake autotools m4 cpython pip mypy pyinstaller firefox gradle ant sbt chisel npm qmk (that is - everything I've touched). I also know that virtually everything related to webdev is just straight-up awful. I've also used Blender and can testify from personal experience that it's bad. What else is there?
  - okamiueru 5y ago
    To clarify, when you say these are "non-utopian", it would help to know what that means to you. I honestly think blender is a technical marvel that in many cases is better than its proprietary counterparts. The bar is quite high for these kinds of specialised and very expensive software. So, if blender is "bad", then perhaps the bar is set so high, that I don't think I can give a satisfactory answer. "Utopian" in that there is nothing that could be better or improved is a higher bar than what I had in mind. But, just "better or equal than its proprietary counterparts", I do feel there are examples. Linux itself being a very clear one. There is a reason why it's the most used operating system by a mile (something like 90-98%). More contentiously I would also include it for desktop use. Hmm, perhaps AOSP also. Out of the many tools you've mentioned, I've used most of them as well, and I don't consider any of them particularly great. But, what are the closed source alternatives that are better? Perhaps also fish, as I cannot think of a better proprietary shell. Powershell and its windows integration is uaf. Maybe some of my examples are skewed by the value I place on it not being controlled by corporate interests. That my usage isn't profiled, that I'm not exposed to dark patterns for KPIs at some board meeting.

GekkePrutser 5y ago

Agreed. I run KDE on FreeBSD and it's so amazing to have it do what I want, not what some company wants. I feel the same about a lot of apps in F-Droid now. Sometimes their functionality is not as complete or they're not as polished as their Google Play counterparts. But the ad/crapware and mandatory logins that is included in those apps take away a lot of usability now. At that point I gladly give up some polish for a 2MB app that is fast and does just what I need over a bloated 100MB app with stupid animations, ads and tracking. My battery loves it too.

okamiueru 5y ago

I could not agree more. It's almost baffling to see the constant frustration of closed operating systems, and then outright rejecting Linux as an alternative, as if stuck one some preconception that it is bad. I've regularly used all three, and from my point of view, they are not even close to being equal. It's the only platform where I can start my day, and reliably get to work, without any unexpected fuckery wasting half my day. The only thing that causes a comparatively bad experience on Linux is in part software availability or driver related, neither of which is the fault of the operating system itself.