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Stuff like this (not my post): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29416956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29416956 I just remember that every time I re

Stuff like this (not my post): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29416956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29416956 I just remember that every time I reopen Firefox (to test it for something), some new annoying thing like Pocket or some other trendy extension I didn't ask for has suddenly appeared. And it's always bugging me with CHECK OUT WHAT WE ADDED popups. I don't CARE about your new features, just let me browse the web and stay outta the way, damn it.

dralley 5y ago
All of this combined is still less "dark" than Chrome automatically combining Chrome logins with standard Google accounts, and logging you into the browser account whenever you log into your Google account. To say nothing of things like FLoC, new web APIs that just so happen to be excellent ways to track you, neutering ad blockers, AMP integration, and so on.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  > All of this combined is still less "dark" than Chrome automatically combining Chrome logins with standard Google accounts, and logging you into the browser account whenever you log into your Google account. I actually find that a very useful feature that keeps my settings and logins in sync across multiple computers and accounts. > To say nothing of things like FLoC, new web APIs that just so happen to be excellent ways to track you Still falls into the "it just tracks you" category... basically the only major downfall, which isn't a big deal to me. Everyone tracks you these days, and mostly an adblocker negates the effects. > AMP integration Yeah, AMP and its ilk (FB Lightning pages, etc.) were good ideas evilly implemented. Good thing AMP is on its way out. > neutering ad blockers That would be a big deal if and when it comes to pass (seemingly soon, perhaps?) The thing is, aside from the ad blockers, most of those supposed downsides have had little to no impact on my user experience, vs the constant hassling of Firefox. I get annoyed every time I open Firefox. Chrome just works and actively makes my life easier with its syncing and auto logins. To you those may be downsides, to me they are helpful and unobtrusive.
jefftk 5y ago
A dark pattern is trying to trick the user, with hard to find close, boxes, pre-checked subscriptions, or other misleading user interface patterns. Looking through your linked comment, I don't see any examples of these? Details: The first point there is changing the API for their add-ons, which they did for performance, maintainability, and security reasons. No dark pattern there. On Firefox Suggest (points 2 and 3), are you saying it is a dark pattern because their messaging when you enable the feature is not clear about what's happening? What's wrong with the messaging and how would you like it to be better? With ads on the new tab page, I don't see what is a dark pattern about it? Or are you just saying that you don't like ads and wish Firefox would find another source of revenue? With the Mr. Robot extension (points 5 and 6), I think it was a dumb choice, but again I don't see how it's a dark pattern?
- technobabbler 5y ago
  I'd argue that presenting partner extensions as though they were a user-friendly feature is a dark pattern in and of itself. "Check out this shiny new feature you'll love!" Oh wait, it's just more Firefox spam. Stop wasting my time. If the semantics bother you, feel free to call it something else... an anti-feature, perhaps. Every time I open Firefox it's different, and annoying in some new way. It's really gone downhill in the last decade.
handrous 5y ago
That's not a dark pattern, it's just obnoxious advertising garbage. Which is still bad, but a different thing. FWIW this is also one of my least favorite things about FF. What the fuck is the point of unobtrusive background auto-updating if you're also going to annoy me with ads every single time you do it?
- eropple 5y ago
  YMMV, but people talk about these ads firefox is throwing around and I just don't see them. Did I accidentally turn a knob or something and it's just carried with me through years of Firefox Sync'ing?
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    Yeah, there are a bunch of ways to turn them off if you're a frequent user. But as a fresh install, you get bombarded with all sorts of useless recommendations and ads. It reminds me of the MSN start page. I see the fresh installs often because I only use Firefox to test occasional browser bugs (it's always Firefox), and then delete it a few weeks later when I no longer need it, then reinstall it later when I need to test it again. Every time it gets more annoying.
  - handrous 5y ago
    Most updates at least open and focus a tab about what updated. I'm not sure I've ever cared what it said or needed to know any of the info on those, in years of that happening. Some updates also like to pop up messages or bug me to use crap like Pocket or their revolutionary (LOL) new color theming. Possibly there's a way to stop it, but I only use FF on my Windows gaming machine these days, so it's not a big deal.
- godshatter 5y ago
  > unobtrusive background auto-updating On that same point, whenever something starts failing to work on firefox (on Windows or Linux), I have come realize that it's probably an "unobtrusive auto-update" that is causing it. Sure enough, closing and restarting firefox gives me a new tab showing what was just "unobtrusively auto-updated", and whatever was broken is now working again. I don't think they know what "unobtrusive" means. Having said that, even with the previous complaints it's still much better than the privacy problems with chrome, at least in my opinion.

dralley 5y ago

All of this combined is still less "dark" than Chrome automatically combining Chrome logins with standard Google accounts, and logging you into the browser account whenever you log into your Google account. To say nothing of things like FLoC, new web APIs that just so happen to be excellent ways to track you, neutering ad blockers, AMP integration, and so on.

technobabbler 5y ago
> All of this combined is still less "dark" than Chrome automatically combining Chrome logins with standard Google accounts, and logging you into the browser account whenever you log into your Google account. I actually find that a very useful feature that keeps my settings and logins in sync across multiple computers and accounts. > To say nothing of things like FLoC, new web APIs that just so happen to be excellent ways to track you Still falls into the "it just tracks you" category... basically the only major downfall, which isn't a big deal to me. Everyone tracks you these days, and mostly an adblocker negates the effects. > AMP integration Yeah, AMP and its ilk (FB Lightning pages, etc.) were good ideas evilly implemented. Good thing AMP is on its way out. > neutering ad blockers That would be a big deal if and when it comes to pass (seemingly soon, perhaps?) The thing is, aside from the ad blockers, most of those supposed downsides have had little to no impact on my user experience, vs the constant hassling of Firefox. I get annoyed every time I open Firefox. Chrome just works and actively makes my life easier with its syncing and auto logins. To you those may be downsides, to me they are helpful and unobtrusive.

jefftk 5y ago

A dark pattern is trying to trick the user, with hard to find close, boxes, pre-checked subscriptions, or other misleading user interface patterns. Looking through your linked comment, I don't see any examples of these? Details: The first point there is changing the API for their add-ons, which they did for performance, maintainability, and security reasons. No dark pattern there. On Firefox Suggest (points 2 and 3), are you saying it is a dark pattern because their messaging when you enable the feature is not clear about what's happening? What's wrong with the messaging and how would you like it to be better? With ads on the new tab page, I don't see what is a dark pattern about it? Or are you just saying that you don't like ads and wish Firefox would find another source of revenue? With the Mr. Robot extension (points 5 and 6), I think it was a dumb choice, but again I don't see how it's a dark pattern?

technobabbler 5y ago
I'd argue that presenting partner extensions as though they were a user-friendly feature is a dark pattern in and of itself. "Check out this shiny new feature you'll love!" Oh wait, it's just more Firefox spam. Stop wasting my time. If the semantics bother you, feel free to call it something else... an anti-feature, perhaps. Every time I open Firefox it's different, and annoying in some new way. It's really gone downhill in the last decade.

handrous 5y ago

That's not a dark pattern, it's just obnoxious advertising garbage. Which is still bad, but a different thing. FWIW this is also one of my least favorite things about FF. What the fuck is the point of unobtrusive background auto-updating if you're also going to annoy me with ads every single time you do it?

eropple 5y ago
YMMV, but people talk about these ads firefox is throwing around and I just don't see them. Did I accidentally turn a knob or something and it's just carried with me through years of Firefox Sync'ing?
- technobabbler 5y ago
  Yeah, there are a bunch of ways to turn them off if you're a frequent user. But as a fresh install, you get bombarded with all sorts of useless recommendations and ads. It reminds me of the MSN start page. I see the fresh installs often because I only use Firefox to test occasional browser bugs (it's always Firefox), and then delete it a few weeks later when I no longer need it, then reinstall it later when I need to test it again. Every time it gets more annoying.
- handrous 5y ago
  Most updates at least open and focus a tab about what updated. I'm not sure I've ever cared what it said or needed to know any of the info on those, in years of that happening. Some updates also like to pop up messages or bug me to use crap like Pocket or their revolutionary (LOL) new color theming. Possibly there's a way to stop it, but I only use FF on my Windows gaming machine these days, so it's not a big deal.
godshatter 5y ago
> unobtrusive background auto-updating On that same point, whenever something starts failing to work on firefox (on Windows or Linux), I have come realize that it's probably an "unobtrusive auto-update" that is causing it. Sure enough, closing and restarting firefox gives me a new tab showing what was just "unobtrusively auto-updated", and whatever was broken is now working again. I don't think they know what "unobtrusive" means. Having said that, even with the previous complaints it's still much better than the privacy problems with chrome, at least in my opinion.