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> Firefox, for all it's modern faults, is the only browser that's actually different in any substantial way. That's the thing. I don't WANT a browser that's ac

> Firefox, for all it's modern faults, is the only browser that's actually different in any substantial way. That's the thing. I don't WANT a browser that's actually different. The web is a duopoly between Apple and Google, and everything else is a second-class citizen. The era of an "open" web came and went, passing us by as capitalism took over. Firefox offers no meaningful freedom when all the content it's supposed to consume was designed by and for big companies targeting other big companies' products and customers. Using Firefox introduces a lot of headaches and subjects you to frequent, meaningless UI updates that add partner extensions against your will and show you recommendations that I don't want to see... Mozilla is desperately trying to stay relevant and has introduced a lot more dark patterns than Chrome has, all while adding no value beyond some vague, lackluster appeal to a libre web... too little, too late. Google, for all its faults, makes a darn good browser. The only downside is that they track my habits. So what? I'm not particularly exciting, and the only real cost I've noticed, beyond needing an ad blocker, is that my Google News feed gets cluttered with shit I don't care about derived from my browsing history. But other than that Chrome is just wonderfully simple and clean compared to the bloated Firefox (and its lookalike clones, Opera and Edge).

mmastrac 5y ago
This comment reads like you've never lived through a browser monopoly. Sure it's great now, but do you think Google will work as hard and dedicate as much budget if there are two or even worse - just one - viable browser?
- technobabbler 5y ago
  Frankly I do miss the IE6 days, when everything just mostly worked. NetCaptor, an IE-based browser using Trident to render pages, had its own ad blocker, tabbed browsing, quicksearch, etc. -- most of the best features of Chrome -- without all the compatibility issues of the browser wars. Disabling ActiveX and Java (not Javascript) and having Just One Browser made for a remarkably clean and simple experience, the likes of which we haven't seen since. For all the modern innovations, I don't think the fundamental premise of the web has changed all that much -- hyperlinks, text, and media -- but the user and developer experience has gotten a lot, lot worse over time as more and more money competed for eyeballs. Edit: As for "work as hard and dedicate as much budget"... I hope they don't! A circa-2000s feature freeze on web browsers would be wonderful. Stop "innovating", i.e., creating trash features that only help huge enterprises selling trash advertising. The web doesn't need to be this complex; we're feature-rich and content-poor as it is. What started as a network for academics and info sharing ended up being a marketer's wet dream and a nightmare for everyone else.
- criddell 5y ago
  Sometimes I wish the pace of change would drop way, way back for a few years. If the main browser developers were to all agree to an X year ceasefire where no new features are introduced - only bug fixes and standards clarifications are allowed - I don't necessarily think it would be all that bad for users or developers.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  I lived through the tail-end of the Internet Explorer monopoly, and tried to push Firefox with those willing to try it. I don't want an IE 2021 in the form of Chrome with a broken web for other clients.
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    We wouldn't have that problem if Gecko and Webkit went away and everything was Blink.
    - mmastrac 5y ago
      If that happened five years ago, everything would be Amp and PNaCl. The diverse ecosystem keeps the Chrome engineers in check.
      - pictur 5y ago
        I totally agree. Chrome is busy fucking most web standard
      - technobabbler 5y ago
        With < 5% marketshare? It was probably more the publisher (news companies) and marketplace revolts (Facebook) that checked Google, not Mozilla.
jefftk 5y ago
> Mozilla ... has introduced a lot more dark patterns than Chrome has What are you referring to?
- technobabbler 5y ago
  Stuff like this (not my post): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29416956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29416956 I just remember that every time I reopen Firefox (to test it for something), some new annoying thing like Pocket or some other trendy extension I didn't ask for has suddenly appeared. And it's always bugging me with CHECK OUT WHAT WE ADDED popups. I don't CARE about your new features, just let me browse the web and stay outta the way, damn it.
  - dralley 5y ago
    All of this combined is still less "dark" than Chrome automatically combining Chrome logins with standard Google accounts, and logging you into the browser account whenever you log into your Google account. To say nothing of things like FLoC, new web APIs that just so happen to be excellent ways to track you, neutering ad blockers, AMP integration, and so on.
    - technobabbler 5y ago
      > All of this combined is still less "dark" than Chrome automatically combining Chrome logins with standard Google accounts, and logging you into the browser account whenever you log into your Google account. I actually find that a very useful feature that keeps my settings and logins in sync across multiple computers and accounts. > To say nothing of things like FLoC, new web APIs that just so happen to be excellent ways to track you Still falls into the "it just tracks you" category... basically the only major downfall, which isn't a big deal to me. Everyone tracks you these days, and mostly an adblocker negates the effects. > AMP integration Yeah, AMP and its ilk (FB Lightning pages, etc.) were good ideas evilly implemented. Good thing AMP is on its way out. > neutering ad blockers That would be a big deal if and when it comes to pass (seemingly soon, perhaps?) The thing is, aside from the ad blockers, most of those supposed downsides have had little to no impact on my user experience, vs the constant hassling of Firefox. I get annoyed every time I open Firefox. Chrome just works and actively makes my life easier with its syncing and auto logins. To you those may be downsides, to me they are helpful and unobtrusive.
kitsunesoba 5y ago
My biggest gripe with Chrome isn’t so much its tracking (though that’s not great either) but rather that for Google, efficiency is a ghost of an afterthought and all engineer time goes into pumping out shiny new web features to woo devs. Only OS maintainers seem to give two hoots about efficiency… Google and Mozilla see no issue with turning your laptop into a battery destroying space heater, and the impact of Google’s part in this is outsize with every other app being built with Electron.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  Is this really still an issue? Even Chromebooks, ironically, have long enough battery lives for daily use. Phones seem to work OK. Despite inefficiencies, the hardware is still miles ahead of the of average user's software needs these days.

mmastrac 5y ago

This comment reads like you've never lived through a browser monopoly. Sure it's great now, but do you think Google will work as hard and dedicate as much budget if there are two or even worse - just one - viable browser?

technobabbler 5y ago
Frankly I do miss the IE6 days, when everything just mostly worked. NetCaptor, an IE-based browser using Trident to render pages, had its own ad blocker, tabbed browsing, quicksearch, etc. -- most of the best features of Chrome -- without all the compatibility issues of the browser wars. Disabling ActiveX and Java (not Javascript) and having Just One Browser made for a remarkably clean and simple experience, the likes of which we haven't seen since. For all the modern innovations, I don't think the fundamental premise of the web has changed all that much -- hyperlinks, text, and media -- but the user and developer experience has gotten a lot, lot worse over time as more and more money competed for eyeballs. Edit: As for "work as hard and dedicate as much budget"... I hope they don't! A circa-2000s feature freeze on web browsers would be wonderful. Stop "innovating", i.e., creating trash features that only help huge enterprises selling trash advertising. The web doesn't need to be this complex; we're feature-rich and content-poor as it is. What started as a network for academics and info sharing ended up being a marketer's wet dream and a nightmare for everyone else.
criddell 5y ago
Sometimes I wish the pace of change would drop way, way back for a few years. If the main browser developers were to all agree to an X year ceasefire where no new features are introduced - only bug fixes and standards clarifications are allowed - I don't necessarily think it would be all that bad for users or developers.
selfhoster11 5y ago
I lived through the tail-end of the Internet Explorer monopoly, and tried to push Firefox with those willing to try it. I don't want an IE 2021 in the form of Chrome with a broken web for other clients.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  We wouldn't have that problem if Gecko and Webkit went away and everything was Blink.
  - mmastrac 5y ago
    If that happened five years ago, everything would be Amp and PNaCl. The diverse ecosystem keeps the Chrome engineers in check.
    - pictur 5y ago
      I totally agree. Chrome is busy fucking most web standard
    - technobabbler 5y ago
      With < 5% marketshare? It was probably more the publisher (news companies) and marketplace revolts (Facebook) that checked Google, not Mozilla.

jefftk 5y ago

> Mozilla ... has introduced a lot more dark patterns than Chrome has What are you referring to?

technobabbler 5y ago
Stuff like this (not my post): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29416956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29416956 I just remember that every time I reopen Firefox (to test it for something), some new annoying thing like Pocket or some other trendy extension I didn't ask for has suddenly appeared. And it's always bugging me with CHECK OUT WHAT WE ADDED popups. I don't CARE about your new features, just let me browse the web and stay outta the way, damn it.
- dralley 5y ago
  All of this combined is still less "dark" than Chrome automatically combining Chrome logins with standard Google accounts, and logging you into the browser account whenever you log into your Google account. To say nothing of things like FLoC, new web APIs that just so happen to be excellent ways to track you, neutering ad blockers, AMP integration, and so on.
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    > All of this combined is still less "dark" than Chrome automatically combining Chrome logins with standard Google accounts, and logging you into the browser account whenever you log into your Google account. I actually find that a very useful feature that keeps my settings and logins in sync across multiple computers and accounts. > To say nothing of things like FLoC, new web APIs that just so happen to be excellent ways to track you Still falls into the "it just tracks you" category... basically the only major downfall, which isn't a big deal to me. Everyone tracks you these days, and mostly an adblocker negates the effects. > AMP integration Yeah, AMP and its ilk (FB Lightning pages, etc.) were good ideas evilly implemented. Good thing AMP is on its way out. > neutering ad blockers That would be a big deal if and when it comes to pass (seemingly soon, perhaps?) The thing is, aside from the ad blockers, most of those supposed downsides have had little to no impact on my user experience, vs the constant hassling of Firefox. I get annoyed every time I open Firefox. Chrome just works and actively makes my life easier with its syncing and auto logins. To you those may be downsides, to me they are helpful and unobtrusive.

kitsunesoba 5y ago

My biggest gripe with Chrome isn’t so much its tracking (though that’s not great either) but rather that for Google, efficiency is a ghost of an afterthought and all engineer time goes into pumping out shiny new web features to woo devs. Only OS maintainers seem to give two hoots about efficiency… Google and Mozilla see no issue with turning your laptop into a battery destroying space heater, and the impact of Google’s part in this is outsize with every other app being built with Electron.

technobabbler 5y ago
Is this really still an issue? Even Chromebooks, ironically, have long enough battery lives for daily use. Phones seem to work OK. Despite inefficiencies, the hardware is still miles ahead of the of average user's software needs these days.