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Yes, of course. But the virus is endemic and vaccines will not stop it from being caught by everybody at some point. You can't lockdown the virus away. You ca

Yes, of course. But the virus is endemic and vaccines will not stop it from being caught by everybody at some point. You can't lockdown the virus away. You can't stop the spread by canceling flights either. Just seems like awful policymaking driven by virtue signaling. Covid is here forever, and that's life.

junon 5y ago
Seems we've already forgotten the whole point of lockdowns the first time: to prevent overloading the hospital systems. In places where hospitals were under capacity, deaths were significantly lower. Germany is a good example of this. Overwhelmed healthcare systems, by comparison, saw lots more deaths. Once it escaped Wuhan the goal was no longer to contain, but to control and soften the impact.
TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
This is nonsense. Vaccination stopped smallpox and polio. Failure at Zero Covid is the result of poor, anti-realistic policies and attitudes - like yours, for example. It's not because it's impossible, either economically or scientifically.
- beagle3 5y ago
  This is nonsense. Vaccination did not stop measles or whooping cough, and has not even reduced their spread (only their symptoms) despite decades of availability. Both of their vaccines are leaky - just like the Covid vaccine.
  - loeg 5y ago
    What? Measles is almost entirely constrained to the unvaccinated and we vaccinate babies for pertussis at 2 months.
    - beagle3 5y ago
      Sorry, meant to write flu. Not sure why I wrote measles. Measles vaccine is, indeed, likely the best vaccine ever in terms of efficiency and safety. It’s also sterilizing rather than leaky.
FourHand451 5y ago
> But the virus is endemic and vaccines will not stop it from being caught by everybody at some point. Plenty of people live their whole lives without catching smallpox or polio. We have/can develop effective vaccines for COVID. Why should it be different?
- beagle3 5y ago
  No people have gone through their life without catching the cold and very few without catching the flu at least once, despite having flu vaccines for a few decades now. Not all viruses are the same, and sarscov2 is much more like cold/flu than polio. Specifically, saracov2 has reservoirs in animals. Unless you had an effective vaccine that also works for cats, dogs, deer etc and the ability to actually deploy it (think wild deer all over the US), it’s here to stay.
  - Geezus-42 5y ago
    Create an animal vaccine, give hunters dart guns and free rein to shoot as many as they can. Then see what happens.
    - beagle3 5y ago
      You are underestimating the geographical spread and numbers of deer in the us. And likely also overestimating the number and ability of hunters.
simonh 5y ago
We can't stop it dead, but we can dramatically reduce the number of critical illnesses and deaths, and have done so in many countries. I'm a Brit and our lockdown and vaccination policy has been extremely effective. We've largely lived normal lives since the summer, with low case rates and very low mortality thanks to strong vaccine uptake and popular support for protective measures. If we need to lock down again, we will because we have experienced the benefits that this strategy has produced. I'm having my booster shot on Saturday. I fully expect to contract the virus at some point, and that's fine. I'm well protected by vaccination and the rate of propagation in the country is moderate enough that the hospitals aren't being overwhelmed by huge surges in infections and deaths any more. Slowing down and limiting the impact of the virus doesn't stop it, correct, but it does massively reduce the damage it causes. That is very much worth doing, as the experience here in the UK clearly shows.
- adam_arthur 5y ago
  The UK has roughly equivalent covid deaths per capita as the USA, where vast parts of the country never locked down and still by and large don't wear masks or get vaccinated. Did the stricter lockdowns make a difference in the end?
  - simonh 5y ago
    Were demographically and geographically completely different. Our population is much denser, more like a populous US state than a sprawling continental giant. People used to compare virus control in the US to places like Singapore and New Zealand, as though their ability to control the virus has any lessons that are realistically applicable. We were hammered early on because we are very highly connected with the rest of the world. London is very international, and Heathrow is one of the busiest airports in the world, out of proportion to our population size. We were always going to take a heavy hit. Nevertheless as soon as vaccines became available we have had broad adoption, and ever since we've been reaping the rewards. Delta arrived here early, but by then our vaccine take up was enough that it didn't really make as much of an impact on us as it has elsewhere. It's just amazing to me that in 2021 here on HN the fact that vaccines protect against viruses is an actual question, or in any way political.
taylodl 5y ago
> Covid is here forever, and that's life. Good thing we didn't take that attitude with smallpox. Or polio. We have eradicated disease. It's not like we've never done this before.
- adam_arthur 5y ago
  Those diseases actually had high mortality rates, unlike covid. There's something called proportionate response. Personally I think policymakers should consider the actual pros and cons and the weight of them, rather than virtue signal as if everybody can be saved from every ailment, and acting as if second order effects don't exist. We also could have locked down every winter to save people from dying due to flu. Why do you think we didn't do that before, when it could have saved hundreds of thousands of lives? Why don't we wear masks 24/7 to protect from flu?
  - taylodl 5y ago
    Because flu doesn’t fill our ICU’s to overflowing and burn out our medical staff. The number of deaths aren’t the only metric that should concern us.
    - Gibbon1 5y ago
      Some nurse friends of mine say a bad flu season will strain the capacity of ICU's. Something people that want to 'live with covid' don't seem to consider.

junon 5y ago

Seems we've already forgotten the whole point of lockdowns the first time: to prevent overloading the hospital systems. In places where hospitals were under capacity, deaths were significantly lower. Germany is a good example of this. Overwhelmed healthcare systems, by comparison, saw lots more deaths. Once it escaped Wuhan the goal was no longer to contain, but to control and soften the impact.

TheOtherHobbes 5y ago

This is nonsense. Vaccination stopped smallpox and polio. Failure at Zero Covid is the result of poor, anti-realistic policies and attitudes - like yours, for example. It's not because it's impossible, either economically or scientifically.

beagle3 5y ago
This is nonsense. Vaccination did not stop measles or whooping cough, and has not even reduced their spread (only their symptoms) despite decades of availability. Both of their vaccines are leaky - just like the Covid vaccine.
- loeg 5y ago
  What? Measles is almost entirely constrained to the unvaccinated and we vaccinate babies for pertussis at 2 months.
  - beagle3 5y ago
    Sorry, meant to write flu. Not sure why I wrote measles. Measles vaccine is, indeed, likely the best vaccine ever in terms of efficiency and safety. It’s also sterilizing rather than leaky.

FourHand451 5y ago

> But the virus is endemic and vaccines will not stop it from being caught by everybody at some point. Plenty of people live their whole lives without catching smallpox or polio. We have/can develop effective vaccines for COVID. Why should it be different?

beagle3 5y ago
No people have gone through their life without catching the cold and very few without catching the flu at least once, despite having flu vaccines for a few decades now. Not all viruses are the same, and sarscov2 is much more like cold/flu than polio. Specifically, saracov2 has reservoirs in animals. Unless you had an effective vaccine that also works for cats, dogs, deer etc and the ability to actually deploy it (think wild deer all over the US), it’s here to stay.
- Geezus-42 5y ago
  Create an animal vaccine, give hunters dart guns and free rein to shoot as many as they can. Then see what happens.
  - beagle3 5y ago
    You are underestimating the geographical spread and numbers of deer in the us. And likely also overestimating the number and ability of hunters.

simonh 5y ago

We can't stop it dead, but we can dramatically reduce the number of critical illnesses and deaths, and have done so in many countries. I'm a Brit and our lockdown and vaccination policy has been extremely effective. We've largely lived normal lives since the summer, with low case rates and very low mortality thanks to strong vaccine uptake and popular support for protective measures. If we need to lock down again, we will because we have experienced the benefits that this strategy has produced. I'm having my booster shot on Saturday. I fully expect to contract the virus at some point, and that's fine. I'm well protected by vaccination and the rate of propagation in the country is moderate enough that the hospitals aren't being overwhelmed by huge surges in infections and deaths any more. Slowing down and limiting the impact of the virus doesn't stop it, correct, but it does massively reduce the damage it causes. That is very much worth doing, as the experience here in the UK clearly shows.

adam_arthur 5y ago
The UK has roughly equivalent covid deaths per capita as the USA, where vast parts of the country never locked down and still by and large don't wear masks or get vaccinated. Did the stricter lockdowns make a difference in the end?
- simonh 5y ago
  Were demographically and geographically completely different. Our population is much denser, more like a populous US state than a sprawling continental giant. People used to compare virus control in the US to places like Singapore and New Zealand, as though their ability to control the virus has any lessons that are realistically applicable. We were hammered early on because we are very highly connected with the rest of the world. London is very international, and Heathrow is one of the busiest airports in the world, out of proportion to our population size. We were always going to take a heavy hit. Nevertheless as soon as vaccines became available we have had broad adoption, and ever since we've been reaping the rewards. Delta arrived here early, but by then our vaccine take up was enough that it didn't really make as much of an impact on us as it has elsewhere. It's just amazing to me that in 2021 here on HN the fact that vaccines protect against viruses is an actual question, or in any way political.

taylodl 5y ago

> Covid is here forever, and that's life. Good thing we didn't take that attitude with smallpox. Or polio. We have eradicated disease. It's not like we've never done this before.

adam_arthur 5y ago
Those diseases actually had high mortality rates, unlike covid. There's something called proportionate response. Personally I think policymakers should consider the actual pros and cons and the weight of them, rather than virtue signal as if everybody can be saved from every ailment, and acting as if second order effects don't exist. We also could have locked down every winter to save people from dying due to flu. Why do you think we didn't do that before, when it could have saved hundreds of thousands of lives? Why don't we wear masks 24/7 to protect from flu?
- taylodl 5y ago
  Because flu doesn’t fill our ICU’s to overflowing and burn out our medical staff. The number of deaths aren’t the only metric that should concern us.
  - Gibbon1 5y ago
    Some nurse friends of mine say a bad flu season will strain the capacity of ICU's. Something people that want to 'live with covid' don't seem to consider.