3 ms·

Isn't that a bit like saying cash is dirty? I don't think we are under obligation to keep our funds traceable? Perhaps we are getting closer to that point thoug

Isn't that a bit like saying cash is dirty? I don't think we are under obligation to keep our funds traceable? Perhaps we are getting closer to that point though.

ceejayoz 5y ago
> I don't think we are under obligation to keep our funds traceable? Oh, you do. Not being able to prove the source of your funds puts you at serious risk of asset forfeiture.
- gumby 5y ago
  Oh, once you’re talking about asset forfeiture, even an ironclad provenance doesn’t help.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  That's not quite what I'm talking about. Obviously if you transfer money to your account you need to be able to explain where it comes from. But once you have the money, you can turn them into cash or gold if you want. At that point they are anonymous. If you the give them to someone, well then they need to explain where it came from. Also, if you want to put them back into your account, you'd need to show provenance.
linspace 5y ago
We are totally under the obligation to justify funds. To start with, because taxes, but also there are a lot of legislation put in place to prevent money laundering under threat of very high fines for non compliance, even if no laundering happened
- Grustaf 5y ago
  This all applies to when you receive the money. The discussion concerns what you then proceed to do with them.
pjc50 5y ago
UK: Unexplained Wealth Order https://www.stpaulschambers.com/what-are-unexplained-wealth-orders/ https://www.stpaulschambers.com/what-are-unexplained-wealth-...
acdha 5y ago
You're still required to keep records for things like tax purposes. More importantly, however, this is a service specifically designed to launder money which is going to look like a public declaration of intent to law enforcement types. Since this costs money to use, most people are not going to use it unless they're trying to hide something so the big risk I'd worry about is similar to the risks of running a Tor exit node in your house. What happens when someone else using that service is investigated for some serious crime? Anyone who has transactions going to or from that pool is going to be under suspicion and it's really hard to _prove_ that you weren't knowingly helping them launder money when you have a public log of transactions involving the target.
- throwaway248329 5y ago
  This is like saying that Tor is specifically designed to buy drugs. It is designed for privacy, just like Tornado.cash is. Privacy can be used for many things.
  - acdha 5y ago
    People who really care about privacy don’t use public blockchains. Leaving a permanent public log of your transactions for analysts is reckless in general. In this specific case, you’re talking about a service people have to pay to use. That lowers the pool of people using it considerably which makes techniques like timing analysis easier and increases the odds that your transactions will be mixed in with someone else’s criminal activity.
    - throwaway248329 5y ago
      Plenty of people concerned with privacy use public blockchains - you don't need to dox yourself to use them, just need a private key. Unlike traditional finance, where you just have to hope that your PII data won't get leaked one day with all your transaction history. Timing analysis is a real concern, that's why they warn you about it on the front page and ask to wait before you withdraw.

Isn't that a bit like saying cash is dirty? I don't think we are under obligation to keep our funds traceable? Perhaps we are getting closer to that point though.

ceejayoz 5y ago

> I don't think we are under obligation to keep our funds traceable? Oh, you do. Not being able to prove the source of your funds puts you at serious risk of asset forfeiture.

gumby 5y ago
Oh, once you’re talking about asset forfeiture, even an ironclad provenance doesn’t help.
Grustaf 5y ago
That's not quite what I'm talking about. Obviously if you transfer money to your account you need to be able to explain where it comes from. But once you have the money, you can turn them into cash or gold if you want. At that point they are anonymous. If you the give them to someone, well then they need to explain where it came from. Also, if you want to put them back into your account, you'd need to show provenance.

linspace 5y ago

We are totally under the obligation to justify funds. To start with, because taxes, but also there are a lot of legislation put in place to prevent money laundering under threat of very high fines for non compliance, even if no laundering happened

Grustaf 5y ago
This all applies to when you receive the money. The discussion concerns what you then proceed to do with them.

pjc50 5y ago

UK: Unexplained Wealth Order https://www.stpaulschambers.com/what-are-unexplained-wealth-orders/ https://www.stpaulschambers.com/what-are-unexplained-wealth-...

acdha 5y ago

You're still required to keep records for things like tax purposes. More importantly, however, this is a service specifically designed to launder money which is going to look like a public declaration of intent to law enforcement types. Since this costs money to use, most people are not going to use it unless they're trying to hide something so the big risk I'd worry about is similar to the risks of running a Tor exit node in your house. What happens when someone else using that service is investigated for some serious crime? Anyone who has transactions going to or from that pool is going to be under suspicion and it's really hard to _prove_ that you weren't knowingly helping them launder money when you have a public log of transactions involving the target.

throwaway248329 5y ago
This is like saying that Tor is specifically designed to buy drugs. It is designed for privacy, just like Tornado.cash is. Privacy can be used for many things.
- acdha 5y ago
  People who really care about privacy don’t use public blockchains. Leaving a permanent public log of your transactions for analysts is reckless in general. In this specific case, you’re talking about a service people have to pay to use. That lowers the pool of people using it considerably which makes techniques like timing analysis easier and increases the odds that your transactions will be mixed in with someone else’s criminal activity.
  - throwaway248329 5y ago
    Plenty of people concerned with privacy use public blockchains - you don't need to dox yourself to use them, just need a private key. Unlike traditional finance, where you just have to hope that your PII data won't get leaked one day with all your transaction history. Timing analysis is a real concern, that's why they warn you about it on the front page and ask to wait before you withdraw.