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On your last point about respecting ideals and values of other countries, I will note the punitive, heavy handed China’s reaction to Australia’s request for inv

by cgio 5y ago

On your last point about respecting ideals and values of other countries, I will note the punitive, heavy handed China’s reaction to Australia’s request for investigation on Covid-19. And the list of demands from the Chinese embassy in Australia, including control on the freedom of the press. Using your opening statement Australians according to China should not be able to bring food to the table…they should die. For the rest of your argument, I can say you read too smart to not see the gaps in there. “Bread and circuses” as the Romans said. And I am even someone who appreciates socialist ideals, but maybe that’s why I am also not impressed by the story. You went way back in 30s when many western countries’ populations were not that different to what you described.

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
It wasn't a good-faith request for a scientific investigation. Australia's Prime Minister demanded that investigators with powers like "weapons inspectors" be sent into China, and the Australian government was promoting the lab-leak conspiracy theory in the background. If Morrison just wanted a scientific investigation, publicly declaring that China should be given the Iraqi-WMD-inspection treatment would not be the way to go. This was at the same time that Trump switched from praising China's CoVID-19 response to bashing the country and blaming it for the uncontrolled outbreak in the US. It was also around the same time that China reopened, after having virtually eliminated viral transmission, just to give some perspective.
- cgio 5y ago
  The lab leak was a conspiracy theory back then, not anymore is my understanding based on scientific consensus, just a less probable explanation. Regardless, punitive measures are punitive and demands for culling freedom of press are not aligned with respecting the culture of other countries. What that has to do with reopening or Trump’s positions is not clear. Apparently inspectors did eventually go with a lighter treatment and rights and they did not end up with any results. Would they get results if inspections were carried out earlier with more powers? Don’t know, maybe yes maybe no. Not a fan of Morrison’s approach of punching above his weight, but that does not make it an excuse especially in the context of the argument I am responding to, which was that people should not be targeting the Chinese population for the sins of their leadership. I agree with the statement itself, it is hypocritical though unless you also disagree with China’s foreign policy decisions, which the GP did not as per his closing statement.
  - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
    The lab-leak theory has never had any significant support in the scientific community, and over time, every new piece of evidence has even more heavily favored the scientific consensus that SARS-CoV-2 emerged naturally. For example, French researchers have discovered a virus circulating in bats in Laos that is closer to SARS-CoV-2 than anything the Wuhan Institute of Virology had. That alone is basically a 100% refutation of the conspiracy theories about the lab. > What that has to do with reopening or Trump’s positions is not clear Australia is a US ally, and has increasingly aligned itself with the US' more aggressive position towards China over the last few years. It's not a coincidence that Trump and Morrison began attacking China over coronavirus at the same time. > Apparently inspectors did eventually go with a lighter treatment and rights and they did not end up with any results. The WHO team put together one of the most informative reports yet on the origins on SARS-CoV-2. The actual contents of their report were almost completely ignored in US media, though, which was intensely focused on pushing the lab-leak theory and disappointed that the WHO report found it extremely unlikely. If you watch the press conference announcing the results, it's almost comical how the US journalists were completely uninterested in anything the researchers were saying and kept asking about the lab.
    - cgio 5y ago
      I feel like you miss the key argument and context here, I.e. impact of government decisions on population. I am assuming you are of the opinion that this is a non issue, and I am fine with any opinion, as long as it is applied consistently. In this context, you cannot issue pleas for people on the one side and blame countries on the other.
      - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
        I don't this this is a symmetric relationship. Since Trump can't into office, the US has taken an extremely aggressive stance towards China and has sought to intensify the conflict over a whole range of areas (initiating the trade war, making wild accusations of genocide, moving towards recognition of Taiwan, pushing conspiracy theories about CoVID-19), while China has tried to avoid escalation and has almost never gone beyond reciprocal actions. Australia has aligned itself fully with the US in most of these actions, leading the charge against Huawei, funding a prominent think tank that churns out anti-Chinese propaganda, pushing the lab-leak conspiracy theory, inserting itself into disputes in the South China Sea, etc. I think there's a clear aggressor in this situation. The US believes that China is a threat to the unipolar order that has prevailed since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and has embarked on a confrontational policy towards China. Australia, caught between its military ally and its top economic partner, has decided to throw itself entirely behind its military ally.

by cgio 5y ago

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago

It wasn't a good-faith request for a scientific investigation. Australia's Prime Minister demanded that investigators with powers like "weapons inspectors" be sent into China, and the Australian government was promoting the lab-leak conspiracy theory in the background. If Morrison just wanted a scientific investigation, publicly declaring that China should be given the Iraqi-WMD-inspection treatment would not be the way to go. This was at the same time that Trump switched from praising China's CoVID-19 response to bashing the country and blaming it for the uncontrolled outbreak in the US. It was also around the same time that China reopened, after having virtually eliminated viral transmission, just to give some perspective.

cgio 5y ago
The lab leak was a conspiracy theory back then, not anymore is my understanding based on scientific consensus, just a less probable explanation. Regardless, punitive measures are punitive and demands for culling freedom of press are not aligned with respecting the culture of other countries. What that has to do with reopening or Trump’s positions is not clear. Apparently inspectors did eventually go with a lighter treatment and rights and they did not end up with any results. Would they get results if inspections were carried out earlier with more powers? Don’t know, maybe yes maybe no. Not a fan of Morrison’s approach of punching above his weight, but that does not make it an excuse especially in the context of the argument I am responding to, which was that people should not be targeting the Chinese population for the sins of their leadership. I agree with the statement itself, it is hypocritical though unless you also disagree with China’s foreign policy decisions, which the GP did not as per his closing statement.
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  The lab-leak theory has never had any significant support in the scientific community, and over time, every new piece of evidence has even more heavily favored the scientific consensus that SARS-CoV-2 emerged naturally. For example, French researchers have discovered a virus circulating in bats in Laos that is closer to SARS-CoV-2 than anything the Wuhan Institute of Virology had. That alone is basically a 100% refutation of the conspiracy theories about the lab. > What that has to do with reopening or Trump’s positions is not clear Australia is a US ally, and has increasingly aligned itself with the US' more aggressive position towards China over the last few years. It's not a coincidence that Trump and Morrison began attacking China over coronavirus at the same time. > Apparently inspectors did eventually go with a lighter treatment and rights and they did not end up with any results. The WHO team put together one of the most informative reports yet on the origins on SARS-CoV-2. The actual contents of their report were almost completely ignored in US media, though, which was intensely focused on pushing the lab-leak theory and disappointed that the WHO report found it extremely unlikely. If you watch the press conference announcing the results, it's almost comical how the US journalists were completely uninterested in anything the researchers were saying and kept asking about the lab.
  - cgio 5y ago
    I feel like you miss the key argument and context here, I.e. impact of government decisions on population. I am assuming you are of the opinion that this is a non issue, and I am fine with any opinion, as long as it is applied consistently. In this context, you cannot issue pleas for people on the one side and blame countries on the other.
    - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
      I don't this this is a symmetric relationship. Since Trump can't into office, the US has taken an extremely aggressive stance towards China and has sought to intensify the conflict over a whole range of areas (initiating the trade war, making wild accusations of genocide, moving towards recognition of Taiwan, pushing conspiracy theories about CoVID-19), while China has tried to avoid escalation and has almost never gone beyond reciprocal actions. Australia has aligned itself fully with the US in most of these actions, leading the charge against Huawei, funding a prominent think tank that churns out anti-Chinese propaganda, pushing the lab-leak conspiracy theory, inserting itself into disputes in the South China Sea, etc. I think there's a clear aggressor in this situation. The US believes that China is a threat to the unipolar order that has prevailed since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and has embarked on a confrontational policy towards China. Australia, caught between its military ally and its top economic partner, has decided to throw itself entirely behind its military ally.