4 ms·

What is this moral relativism? If you want to live in a world where disappearing people for speaking up, heavy handed state censorship and social credit score a

What is this moral relativism? If you want to live in a world where disappearing people for speaking up, heavy handed state censorship and social credit score are all common practices - I suggest you buy one way ticket to China. It’s easy to talk all of this “liberal” bs while sipping your latte at your local Starbucks, but when it comes down to it you know very well what is right and what is wrong: you make the distinction daily (eg by not immigrating to China)

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thewileyone 5y ago
Hmmm, disappearing people? Guantanamo Bay and other CIA black sites. State censorship? Gary Webb. Social credit score? Okay, you got me but the no-fly list is similar. My point is that everything the West accuses of China, has had a mirror event in the West already. "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."
DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
The social credit score (as most Westerners think of it) is a complete myth. One of the top American experts on Chinese law, at Yale university, calls most Western reporting on the subject "social credit fan fiction." There are various"social credit" systems in China, but the average person does not interact with them. They mostly exist to regulate businesses. Individuals in China do not have a social credit score, and basically the only way to actually fall afoul of any social credit system is to break an existing law, and then fail to comply with a court order. Then, you might end up being barred from flying or buying a train ticket. But the idea that there's a number attached to every Chinese person that is constantly going up or down based on how they post online is just complete fiction. As for "moral relativism," we really should not get into a petty, nationalist match about which country is worse than the other. The US has its own fair share of (arguably way worse) atrocities to answer for (see the entire Middle East over the last 20 years).
- petre 5y ago
  > you might end up being barred from flying or buying a train ticket I see. So essentially like an international terrorist on the US no fly list, just for regular people. Like maybe exposing a government official for sexual harassement, getting charged with spreading rumors and failing to comply with being dissapeared?
  - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
    > just for regular people No, for people who, for example, are convicted of a crime by a court of law and ordered to pay a fine, but refuse to do so. The system is actually much more mundane than people in the West imagine, and it affects a tiny sliver of the population (many times smaller than the fraction of people in the US who are in prison, for example). And again, the social credit systems in China are mainly about business regulation. If a business fails one type of inspection with one government agency, that information will be shared with other government agencies, which will then scrutinize that business more carefully. The idea was to focus regulatory scrutiny on companies that have a pattern of violations, and to lessen the regulatory burden on other companies.
  - necovek 5y ago
    This interpretation seems to be extremely in bad faith. Instead, to me it sounds like a fugitive from law that now can't travel easily.
necovek 5y ago
You may have missed the nuance between wanting to live in a state like China, and not boycotting all business with people from China. In fact, people in China will likely reach the boiling point sooner if their economic "advantage" of lower salaries and cheaper production are brought to a level of their Western counterparts faster (which means, doing business with Chinese people). Boycotting will do nothing to help them. Accepting them and letting them experience the benefits of a freer society will introduce more dissenting voices. As for what world we live in, it's pretty much like that even in modern democracies (other than disappearing people, but they usually end up self-censoring or committing suicide themselves when the pressure from media is too high).
russli1993 5y ago
As a Chinese national, social credit score has it is talked about in the west is basically fake news by international media. There is a credit score system, and it similar in practice and intention to US's credit score. The intent is it is used to judge someone credit worth when it comes to borrowing money (credit cards, loans etc). Your credit history, payment history on loans (credit card, mortgage, and now online loans) goes into it. And in some provinces, whether hydro, water, civil penalties paid on time goes into. There were cases where some government branches tried to put controversial things into it, for example, if you donated blood that will add to your credit score. But people voiced disapproval and the government stopped doing it. So yes, in China, people definitely is able to talk about government policies and voice disapproval for them. And government do listen. There is no such thing as singing praise for the government, or ccp, or xi and you get social credit score added, and you will be disappeared if you say bad things at the government. I regularly criticize government's policies online and my account is still alive.
- deleted 5y ago
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thewileyone 5y ago

Hmmm, disappearing people? Guantanamo Bay and other CIA black sites. State censorship? Gary Webb. Social credit score? Okay, you got me but the no-fly list is similar. My point is that everything the West accuses of China, has had a mirror event in the West already. "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago

The social credit score (as most Westerners think of it) is a complete myth. One of the top American experts on Chinese law, at Yale university, calls most Western reporting on the subject "social credit fan fiction." There are various"social credit" systems in China, but the average person does not interact with them. They mostly exist to regulate businesses. Individuals in China do not have a social credit score, and basically the only way to actually fall afoul of any social credit system is to break an existing law, and then fail to comply with a court order. Then, you might end up being barred from flying or buying a train ticket. But the idea that there's a number attached to every Chinese person that is constantly going up or down based on how they post online is just complete fiction. As for "moral relativism," we really should not get into a petty, nationalist match about which country is worse than the other. The US has its own fair share of (arguably way worse) atrocities to answer for (see the entire Middle East over the last 20 years).

petre 5y ago
> you might end up being barred from flying or buying a train ticket I see. So essentially like an international terrorist on the US no fly list, just for regular people. Like maybe exposing a government official for sexual harassement, getting charged with spreading rumors and failing to comply with being dissapeared?
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  > just for regular people No, for people who, for example, are convicted of a crime by a court of law and ordered to pay a fine, but refuse to do so. The system is actually much more mundane than people in the West imagine, and it affects a tiny sliver of the population (many times smaller than the fraction of people in the US who are in prison, for example). And again, the social credit systems in China are mainly about business regulation. If a business fails one type of inspection with one government agency, that information will be shared with other government agencies, which will then scrutinize that business more carefully. The idea was to focus regulatory scrutiny on companies that have a pattern of violations, and to lessen the regulatory burden on other companies.
- necovek 5y ago
  This interpretation seems to be extremely in bad faith. Instead, to me it sounds like a fugitive from law that now can't travel easily.

necovek 5y ago

You may have missed the nuance between wanting to live in a state like China, and not boycotting all business with people from China. In fact, people in China will likely reach the boiling point sooner if their economic "advantage" of lower salaries and cheaper production are brought to a level of their Western counterparts faster (which means, doing business with Chinese people). Boycotting will do nothing to help them. Accepting them and letting them experience the benefits of a freer society will introduce more dissenting voices. As for what world we live in, it's pretty much like that even in modern democracies (other than disappearing people, but they usually end up self-censoring or committing suicide themselves when the pressure from media is too high).

russli1993 5y ago

As a Chinese national, social credit score has it is talked about in the west is basically fake news by international media. There is a credit score system, and it similar in practice and intention to US's credit score. The intent is it is used to judge someone credit worth when it comes to borrowing money (credit cards, loans etc). Your credit history, payment history on loans (credit card, mortgage, and now online loans) goes into it. And in some provinces, whether hydro, water, civil penalties paid on time goes into. There were cases where some government branches tried to put controversial things into it, for example, if you donated blood that will add to your credit score. But people voiced disapproval and the government stopped doing it. So yes, in China, people definitely is able to talk about government policies and voice disapproval for them. And government do listen. There is no such thing as singing praise for the government, or ccp, or xi and you get social credit score added, and you will be disappeared if you say bad things at the government. I regularly criticize government's policies online and my account is still alive.

deleted 5y ago
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