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This isn’t about racism or xenophobia. This about collectively applying pressure on China, and, more importantly, standing by your ideals. We don’t conduct busi

This isn’t about racism or xenophobia. This about collectively applying pressure on China, and, more importantly, standing by your ideals. We don’t conduct business with corrupt organizations, and by definition any Chinese company is an organization that is tightly tied to one of worst, scariest regimes that the world ever saw. And remember - it’s never “just business”, not unless you’re a completely corrupt psychopath.

thewileyone 5y ago
"We don’t conduct business with corrupt organizations ... " ... Seriously do you even know your own government and politicians??? There is no single nation that can stand on a pedestal and declare that they never work with a corrupt politician, nation or corporation. Not one. If they do, they're lying.
necovek 5y ago
As someone who's been at the receiving end of "applying pressure" (sanctions and bombing), it effectively did nothing to harm those in power, but instead only made innocent people suffer even more. "Ideals" are not a constant, and each and everyone has their own. There are values we should strive to protect, but disenfranchising whole nation for the minority (not that long ago, USA had a minority government when it comes to popular vote) is exactly the wrong thing to do. There were plenty of businesses that didn't want to work with Trump-supporting companies throughout the world, but none of them went and said we shouldn't work with anyone from the USA.
- dadarecit 5y ago
  What is this moral relativism? If you want to live in a world where disappearing people for speaking up, heavy handed state censorship and social credit score are all common practices - I suggest you buy one way ticket to China. It’s easy to talk all of this “liberal” bs while sipping your latte at your local Starbucks, but when it comes down to it you know very well what is right and what is wrong: you make the distinction daily (eg by not immigrating to China)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - thewileyone 5y ago
    Hmmm, disappearing people? Guantanamo Bay and other CIA black sites. State censorship? Gary Webb. Social credit score? Okay, you got me but the no-fly list is similar. My point is that everything the West accuses of China, has had a mirror event in the West already. "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."
  - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
    The social credit score (as most Westerners think of it) is a complete myth. One of the top American experts on Chinese law, at Yale university, calls most Western reporting on the subject "social credit fan fiction." There are various"social credit" systems in China, but the average person does not interact with them. They mostly exist to regulate businesses. Individuals in China do not have a social credit score, and basically the only way to actually fall afoul of any social credit system is to break an existing law, and then fail to comply with a court order. Then, you might end up being barred from flying or buying a train ticket. But the idea that there's a number attached to every Chinese person that is constantly going up or down based on how they post online is just complete fiction. As for "moral relativism," we really should not get into a petty, nationalist match about which country is worse than the other. The US has its own fair share of (arguably way worse) atrocities to answer for (see the entire Middle East over the last 20 years).
    - petre 5y ago
      > you might end up being barred from flying or buying a train ticket I see. So essentially like an international terrorist on the US no fly list, just for regular people. Like maybe exposing a government official for sexual harassement, getting charged with spreading rumors and failing to comply with being dissapeared?
      - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
        > just for regular people No, for people who, for example, are convicted of a crime by a court of law and ordered to pay a fine, but refuse to do so. The system is actually much more mundane than people in the West imagine, and it affects a tiny sliver of the population (many times smaller than the fraction of people in the US who are in prison, for example). And again, the social credit systems in China are mainly about business regulation. If a business fails one type of inspection with one government agency, that information will be shared with other government agencies, which will then scrutinize that business more carefully. The idea was to focus regulatory scrutiny on companies that have a pattern of violations, and to lessen the regulatory burden on other companies.
russli1993 5y ago
Fuck all Chinese people right? They shouldn't able to bring food to the table, they shouldn't live right? Here is my perspective as a Chinese national. I agree the peng shuai case is terrible and I support WTA actions. But I also realize how much Chinese government's actions have transformed people's lives in the country for much much better. I wonder if you have knowledge of the culture, history and the perspectives from the Chinese side. Have you ever seen a video of Chinese people 1930s, learn about what the society was like back then? For the average Chinese, you are a peasant, you slave at the fields for the rest of your life. You will not learn to read, only the elites learn how to read. If you are a women, your best bet is to arrange marry to a rich family, your foot is most likely bounded, you will be a housewife, you will give birth to kids, and you will give birth to boys, if you can't, you will be seen as a failure by the family you marry into. Did I mention the rich and elite men will have multiple wives and mistresses? Women going out to work? Having money? No way. Parents want boys not girls. But you can't blame them, there is no social status for women back then. My grandma was a typical women from the 1930s, farmer, arrange marriage, never taught in reading and writing because there was no need, foot bound. After the ccp and PRC was formed, the local party branch gathered all the women in her village and taught them how to read, how to farm like men, how to work in factories like men, how to tell their husband to fuck off and how to fight them if they beat them. The ccp propaganda that people outside of the country are "disgusted" by were telling people women can hold half the sky, women can do anything men can do. Women are equal to men. Marriage require consent of two the man and the woman, and only themselves have the right to make the decision. And men having multiple wives were made illegal, and under ground practice were heavily sanctioned. Women's social status today in China is massively different. Some guys I know say girls are so lucky, because guys are suppose to serve the girl, guys should earn most of the money in the home, husband should hand all the money to the wife, should never pick a quarrel with wife, etc. SCMP reported that China has two-thirds of top women billionaires. Chinese females also do very well in sports. In Tokyo Olympics 38 golden were won by women vs 13 by men. And of course I know the difficulty still facing women today. Sexual assaults, verbal harassments, discrimination in some work places, domestic harassments and violence. The good thing is these issues are being talked about in the media and on the internet. Very frequently you hear about court cases involving women and justice being served. I do believe they are getting better. I think one of the biggest reason for the change in women's status is Chinese government's education system requires boys and girls to attend 9 years of education. And in school, the vast majority of girls are taught to be the same as guys (sure, I know some teachers do discriminate against girls, but on average). At least in my up bring in China, girls generally do better than guys in school, and my teachers taught to us to respect each other. Almost all girls I grew up with are now working as professionals, none had to drop out of school, or married off and became housewives, all very independent. Most of my guy friends are very respectful of women, I believe owning to correct values and world view established when one is young. And there are so much more about china. It's complex and multi-faceted China has a different political system. The political system has done bad things, but also a lot of good things. Poverty alleviation, my dad side came from a poor village, for the past 20 years, I witnessed how much that village transformed. Ability for people to feed themselves, housing, jobs, education, healthcare, safety. A lot of Chinese people won't say this, but it is true that they are direct results of government's actions. People say China has no democracy, but the government is acting on people's demands and giving them their demands. I want to make a plea with you, forget about political systems for a second, on a personal level, I believe people are more alike than they are different. Chinese people believe in freedom, justice, fairness, rights and the power to make demands and have them be acted upon and becoming the reality. I and many others believe in value of work, creation, and personal effort. I believe there is no free lunch. I believe socialism is not about a disrespect of personal property, it is about the society offering or making an effort in offering equal opportunities to everyone, and attempt to make an leveled playing field. I also believe in freedom and freedom of expression. Although I have to say I believe freedom is not without limits. Conflict arise when one's freedom conflict with the freedom and wellbeing of the others. In these scenarios, I generally support sacrificing some personal freedom if it means there will be clear benefit for a collective wellbeing. You could have a different ideals, but I am happy to talk about why I think this way and listen to your perspective. I also want to say the vast majority of news about China is extremely biased and a lot of them are absolutely false. They are about making people hate China, destroy relationships and make people going to war with China. By the looks of it they are doing an excellent job. One last plea, Japanese in North America were targeted during ww2 due to the war. Nowadays, it feels like Chinese nationals are being treated the same. The issue is not about standing up to particular issue. The issue is about labeling an entire group of people and saying they are evil or against my way of life and my ideals, and thus they should be eliminated, without realizing it's people, humans, on the receiving end of punishment, attacks and destruction. And I think the vast majority of Chinese people and also Chinese government has said this, we don't want to export our ideology, our model. And we want to respect the ideals and values of every other country. We believe its fine for different countries to have different approaches and different takes on various ideals, and they should be able to coexist. We never wanted to replace or change western beliefs.
sofixa 5y ago
The person i'm responding to literally said, and i'm quoting: > Good, fuck China and everything about it. That's pretty much racism and/or xenophobia.

thewileyone 5y ago

"We don’t conduct business with corrupt organizations ... " ... Seriously do you even know your own government and politicians??? There is no single nation that can stand on a pedestal and declare that they never work with a corrupt politician, nation or corporation. Not one. If they do, they're lying.

necovek 5y ago

As someone who's been at the receiving end of "applying pressure" (sanctions and bombing), it effectively did nothing to harm those in power, but instead only made innocent people suffer even more. "Ideals" are not a constant, and each and everyone has their own. There are values we should strive to protect, but disenfranchising whole nation for the minority (not that long ago, USA had a minority government when it comes to popular vote) is exactly the wrong thing to do. There were plenty of businesses that didn't want to work with Trump-supporting companies throughout the world, but none of them went and said we shouldn't work with anyone from the USA.

dadarecit 5y ago
What is this moral relativism? If you want to live in a world where disappearing people for speaking up, heavy handed state censorship and social credit score are all common practices - I suggest you buy one way ticket to China. It’s easy to talk all of this “liberal” bs while sipping your latte at your local Starbucks, but when it comes down to it you know very well what is right and what is wrong: you make the distinction daily (eg by not immigrating to China)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- thewileyone 5y ago
  Hmmm, disappearing people? Guantanamo Bay and other CIA black sites. State censorship? Gary Webb. Social credit score? Okay, you got me but the no-fly list is similar. My point is that everything the West accuses of China, has had a mirror event in the West already. "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  The social credit score (as most Westerners think of it) is a complete myth. One of the top American experts on Chinese law, at Yale university, calls most Western reporting on the subject "social credit fan fiction." There are various"social credit" systems in China, but the average person does not interact with them. They mostly exist to regulate businesses. Individuals in China do not have a social credit score, and basically the only way to actually fall afoul of any social credit system is to break an existing law, and then fail to comply with a court order. Then, you might end up being barred from flying or buying a train ticket. But the idea that there's a number attached to every Chinese person that is constantly going up or down based on how they post online is just complete fiction. As for "moral relativism," we really should not get into a petty, nationalist match about which country is worse than the other. The US has its own fair share of (arguably way worse) atrocities to answer for (see the entire Middle East over the last 20 years).
  - petre 5y ago
    > you might end up being barred from flying or buying a train ticket I see. So essentially like an international terrorist on the US no fly list, just for regular people. Like maybe exposing a government official for sexual harassement, getting charged with spreading rumors and failing to comply with being dissapeared?
    - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
      > just for regular people No, for people who, for example, are convicted of a crime by a court of law and ordered to pay a fine, but refuse to do so. The system is actually much more mundane than people in the West imagine, and it affects a tiny sliver of the population (many times smaller than the fraction of people in the US who are in prison, for example). And again, the social credit systems in China are mainly about business regulation. If a business fails one type of inspection with one government agency, that information will be shared with other government agencies, which will then scrutinize that business more carefully. The idea was to focus regulatory scrutiny on companies that have a pattern of violations, and to lessen the regulatory burden on other companies.

russli1993 5y ago

Fuck all Chinese people right? They shouldn't able to bring food to the table, they shouldn't live right? Here is my perspective as a Chinese national. I agree the peng shuai case is terrible and I support WTA actions. But I also realize how much Chinese government's actions have transformed people's lives in the country for much much better. I wonder if you have knowledge of the culture, history and the perspectives from the Chinese side. Have you ever seen a video of Chinese people 1930s, learn about what the society was like back then? For the average Chinese, you are a peasant, you slave at the fields for the rest of your life. You will not learn to read, only the elites learn how to read. If you are a women, your best bet is to arrange marry to a rich family, your foot is most likely bounded, you will be a housewife, you will give birth to kids, and you will give birth to boys, if you can't, you will be seen as a failure by the family you marry into. Did I mention the rich and elite men will have multiple wives and mistresses? Women going out to work? Having money? No way. Parents want boys not girls. But you can't blame them, there is no social status for women back then. My grandma was a typical women from the 1930s, farmer, arrange marriage, never taught in reading and writing because there was no need, foot bound. After the ccp and PRC was formed, the local party branch gathered all the women in her village and taught them how to read, how to farm like men, how to work in factories like men, how to tell their husband to fuck off and how to fight them if they beat them. The ccp propaganda that people outside of the country are "disgusted" by were telling people women can hold half the sky, women can do anything men can do. Women are equal to men. Marriage require consent of two the man and the woman, and only themselves have the right to make the decision. And men having multiple wives were made illegal, and under ground practice were heavily sanctioned. Women's social status today in China is massively different. Some guys I know say girls are so lucky, because guys are suppose to serve the girl, guys should earn most of the money in the home, husband should hand all the money to the wife, should never pick a quarrel with wife, etc. SCMP reported that China has two-thirds of top women billionaires. Chinese females also do very well in sports. In Tokyo Olympics 38 golden were won by women vs 13 by men. And of course I know the difficulty still facing women today. Sexual assaults, verbal harassments, discrimination in some work places, domestic harassments and violence. The good thing is these issues are being talked about in the media and on the internet. Very frequently you hear about court cases involving women and justice being served. I do believe they are getting better. I think one of the biggest reason for the change in women's status is Chinese government's education system requires boys and girls to attend 9 years of education. And in school, the vast majority of girls are taught to be the same as guys (sure, I know some teachers do discriminate against girls, but on average). At least in my up bring in China, girls generally do better than guys in school, and my teachers taught to us to respect each other. Almost all girls I grew up with are now working as professionals, none had to drop out of school, or married off and became housewives, all very independent. Most of my guy friends are very respectful of women, I believe owning to correct values and world view established when one is young. And there are so much more about china. It's complex and multi-faceted China has a different political system. The political system has done bad things, but also a lot of good things. Poverty alleviation, my dad side came from a poor village, for the past 20 years, I witnessed how much that village transformed. Ability for people to feed themselves, housing, jobs, education, healthcare, safety. A lot of Chinese people won't say this, but it is true that they are direct results of government's actions. People say China has no democracy, but the government is acting on people's demands and giving them their demands. I want to make a plea with you, forget about political systems for a second, on a personal level, I believe people are more alike than they are different. Chinese people believe in freedom, justice, fairness, rights and the power to make demands and have them be acted upon and becoming the reality. I and many others believe in value of work, creation, and personal effort. I believe there is no free lunch. I believe socialism is not about a disrespect of personal property, it is about the society offering or making an effort in offering equal opportunities to everyone, and attempt to make an leveled playing field. I also believe in freedom and freedom of expression. Although I have to say I believe freedom is not without limits. Conflict arise when one's freedom conflict with the freedom and wellbeing of the others. In these scenarios, I generally support sacrificing some personal freedom if it means there will be clear benefit for a collective wellbeing. You could have a different ideals, but I am happy to talk about why I think this way and listen to your perspective. I also want to say the vast majority of news about China is extremely biased and a lot of them are absolutely false. They are about making people hate China, destroy relationships and make people going to war with China. By the looks of it they are doing an excellent job. One last plea, Japanese in North America were targeted during ww2 due to the war. Nowadays, it feels like Chinese nationals are being treated the same. The issue is not about standing up to particular issue. The issue is about labeling an entire group of people and saying they are evil or against my way of life and my ideals, and thus they should be eliminated, without realizing it's people, humans, on the receiving end of punishment, attacks and destruction. And I think the vast majority of Chinese people and also Chinese government has said this, we don't want to export our ideology, our model. And we want to respect the ideals and values of every other country. We believe its fine for different countries to have different approaches and different takes on various ideals, and they should be able to coexist. We never wanted to replace or change western beliefs.

sofixa 5y ago

The person i'm responding to literally said, and i'm quoting: > Good, fuck China and everything about it. That's pretty much racism and/or xenophobia.