4 ms·

Imagine the simple scenario of "someone who looks like you was spotted in area X doing crime Y" and in your pocket you have a receipt that puts many miles away

by stef25 5y ago

Imagine the simple scenario of "someone who looks like you was spotted in area X doing crime Y" and in your pocket you have a receipt that puts many miles away at that time (or something else that would immediately stop you from being a suspect). In what way would "fuck you talk to my lawyer" be helpful?

function_seven 5y ago
1. You don't have to say it aggressively. Politely say, "I need to talk to my lawyer before answering questions." 2. “The suspect conveniently had a receipt in their pocket placing them elsewhere at the exact time of the Y crime. It was the only receipt in his pocket! Seems suspicious to me. He plainly engineered the alibi.” 3. There's no reason you have to immediately begin demonstrating your innocence. It can wait until you have proper representation. It's rarely the case where a receipt in your pocket is the difference between handcuffs and freedom. I'm sure they exist, but more often the decision to arrest you or not is not hinging on your answers to the cop's questions. It's already been made.
- stef25 5y ago
  You mistook my assertiveness for aggression :) And let's assume it's not just the only receipt you happen to have in your house. Anyway, real life example - police calls me up saying this number came up in an investigation, who are you and a few more other questions. They were obviously expecting me to cooperate cause they hadn't bothered to do the paperwork to obtain my identity which was tied to the number. First thing I did was say I'll call you back cause I'm driving, what's your name? So I could verify it was an actual cop. When I called them back I said I'm not telling you anything until you tell me what it's about. Cop hesitantly starts giving a few bits of information and we go back and forth until my mother's town comes up (too small a place to be a coincidence) and the whole thing unravels. Turns out my mom had been getting some weird calls at home and when she was out & about by a person who seemed to be following her. Because of her age and absentmindedness she gave the wrong number out of her recent calls list to the police. Hilarity ensues. Cop suggests I check on my mom, we genuinely thought she had some kind of attack of dementia (she was fine, just very embarrassed). Cop also called my mom to saying your kid's a real hard-ass (but polite and correct)! Anyway my point is - don't you think me lawyering up for this would have been absurd?
  - function_seven 5y ago
    I like your actual scenario. I would probably have done the same as you, and yes it would probably be absurd to actually pay a lawyer money for that situation. Less absurd to just refuse to talk without a lawyer (This refusal does not obligate you to actually go get a lawyer unless and until you get some sort of subpoena or summons, or are arrested) In this case you had a cop who is actually willing to go back-and-forth with you until you discovered what was going on. Absent that, you absolutely would be right to say something like, “without knowing what’s going on here I can’t answer any questions.” Your initial example of “you look like a criminal we’re searching for” is way more fraught with pitfalls that can be avoided by not cooperating. Also, I should be more “assertive” at work…
    - sneak 5y ago
      > Absent that, you absolutely would be right to say something like, “without knowing what’s going on here I can’t answer any questions.” No! An actual lawyer wrote an actual book about this (after he made that famous video we are all talking about). Refusing to answer questions can be used against you! His advice is to collapse it to: "I want a lawyer." It becomes unconstitutional for them to continue questioning you after that statement. Do not decline to answer questions directly - ask for an attorney!
  - sneak 5y ago
    You wouldn't have needed to lawyer up, as you wouldn't have been arrested. Refusing to talk to the police at all would have been the end of it.
  - 542354234235 5y ago
    > Anyway my point is - don't you think me lawyering up for this would have been absurd? Isn’t this just hindsight bias? What if the situation wasn’t your mother’s absentmindedness but your number being found in the phone of a murder victim? The “back and forth” with the officer leads you to confirm that you know and have visited the small town where this person was killed. So they ask you if you have ever visited the window tinting shop where they work, and you say no. What you don’t know if an eye witness incorrectly believes they saw you there, which makes you a liar in the LEO’s eyes. This issue isn’t “what if it turns out to be nothing”. The issue is that if it does turn out to be something, the consequences of not keeping your mouth shut are far worse than the minor “over reaction” when things end up being ok. Its like wearing a seat belt. You don’t do it for all the times you don’t get in an accident. You wear it because the consequences are dire in the case that you do get in an accident.
underwater 5y ago
If they're accusing you the they are at the stage where they already convinced you did it. They would simple think the receipt is an easily faked alibi. Then by talking to them you accidentally give them ammunition. "Yeah, I hated the guy, but I couldn't have killed him" turns into "the defendant told us that he hated the guy". Or you lie accidentally, which gives them another crime to threaten you with; "you had better plead out, because we have a whole list of crimes we can get you for". If someone thinks you have wronged them or committed a crime do not engage them. You will not change their mind. You are not that convincing, and they will see your efforts as manipulative and slimey. (My own first-hand experience with this was civil, not criminal. Someone I had never met accused me of something absolutely nonsensical and filed a lawsuit against me. I thought I could reason with them, but this just made things worse. I would have been much better to approach the situation as though they were dangerously irrational. Just don't engage.)
- stef25 5y ago
  Surely there's a world where not every cop is bent on convicting the first guy that comes up in the conversation and every piece of evidence is seen as fake? It's totally true that you can give cops ammo against yourself without realizing and you must be very careful wrt lying and saying the wrong things. But there also has to be some kind of middle ground.
  - sneak 5y ago
    Cops don't decide who gets convicted. Your statements suggest that you are ignorant of the basics of the process you are criticizing. Don't talk to the police under any circumstances. You cannot ever talk your way out of getting arrested. There is no middle ground. Watch the "don't talk to police" video linked in the thread. He explains that it is like a ratchet: statements can only hurt, it is illegal under the rules of evidence for your statements to the police to be used to exonerate you!
  - alex_sf 5y ago
    The middle ground is bringing in a mediator on your behalf that is a neutral party to the issue. I.e., get a lawyer.
paxys 5y ago
Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE. It gives many such examples, including a very similar scenario than the one you brought up.

by stef25 5y ago

function_seven 5y ago

1. You don't have to say it aggressively. Politely say, "I need to talk to my lawyer before answering questions." 2. “The suspect conveniently had a receipt in their pocket placing them elsewhere at the exact time of the Y crime. It was the only receipt in his pocket! Seems suspicious to me. He plainly engineered the alibi.” 3. There's no reason you have to immediately begin demonstrating your innocence. It can wait until you have proper representation. It's rarely the case where a receipt in your pocket is the difference between handcuffs and freedom. I'm sure they exist, but more often the decision to arrest you or not is not hinging on your answers to the cop's questions. It's already been made.

stef25 5y ago
You mistook my assertiveness for aggression :) And let's assume it's not just the only receipt you happen to have in your house. Anyway, real life example - police calls me up saying this number came up in an investigation, who are you and a few more other questions. They were obviously expecting me to cooperate cause they hadn't bothered to do the paperwork to obtain my identity which was tied to the number. First thing I did was say I'll call you back cause I'm driving, what's your name? So I could verify it was an actual cop. When I called them back I said I'm not telling you anything until you tell me what it's about. Cop hesitantly starts giving a few bits of information and we go back and forth until my mother's town comes up (too small a place to be a coincidence) and the whole thing unravels. Turns out my mom had been getting some weird calls at home and when she was out & about by a person who seemed to be following her. Because of her age and absentmindedness she gave the wrong number out of her recent calls list to the police. Hilarity ensues. Cop suggests I check on my mom, we genuinely thought she had some kind of attack of dementia (she was fine, just very embarrassed). Cop also called my mom to saying your kid's a real hard-ass (but polite and correct)! Anyway my point is - don't you think me lawyering up for this would have been absurd?
- function_seven 5y ago
  I like your actual scenario. I would probably have done the same as you, and yes it would probably be absurd to actually pay a lawyer money for that situation. Less absurd to just refuse to talk without a lawyer (This refusal does not obligate you to actually go get a lawyer unless and until you get some sort of subpoena or summons, or are arrested) In this case you had a cop who is actually willing to go back-and-forth with you until you discovered what was going on. Absent that, you absolutely would be right to say something like, “without knowing what’s going on here I can’t answer any questions.” Your initial example of “you look like a criminal we’re searching for” is way more fraught with pitfalls that can be avoided by not cooperating. Also, I should be more “assertive” at work…
  - sneak 5y ago
    > Absent that, you absolutely would be right to say something like, “without knowing what’s going on here I can’t answer any questions.” No! An actual lawyer wrote an actual book about this (after he made that famous video we are all talking about). Refusing to answer questions can be used against you! His advice is to collapse it to: "I want a lawyer." It becomes unconstitutional for them to continue questioning you after that statement. Do not decline to answer questions directly - ask for an attorney!
- sneak 5y ago
  You wouldn't have needed to lawyer up, as you wouldn't have been arrested. Refusing to talk to the police at all would have been the end of it.
- 542354234235 5y ago
  > Anyway my point is - don't you think me lawyering up for this would have been absurd? Isn’t this just hindsight bias? What if the situation wasn’t your mother’s absentmindedness but your number being found in the phone of a murder victim? The “back and forth” with the officer leads you to confirm that you know and have visited the small town where this person was killed. So they ask you if you have ever visited the window tinting shop where they work, and you say no. What you don’t know if an eye witness incorrectly believes they saw you there, which makes you a liar in the LEO’s eyes. This issue isn’t “what if it turns out to be nothing”. The issue is that if it does turn out to be something, the consequences of not keeping your mouth shut are far worse than the minor “over reaction” when things end up being ok. Its like wearing a seat belt. You don’t do it for all the times you don’t get in an accident. You wear it because the consequences are dire in the case that you do get in an accident.

underwater 5y ago

If they're accusing you the they are at the stage where they already convinced you did it. They would simple think the receipt is an easily faked alibi. Then by talking to them you accidentally give them ammunition. "Yeah, I hated the guy, but I couldn't have killed him" turns into "the defendant told us that he hated the guy". Or you lie accidentally, which gives them another crime to threaten you with; "you had better plead out, because we have a whole list of crimes we can get you for". If someone thinks you have wronged them or committed a crime do not engage them. You will not change their mind. You are not that convincing, and they will see your efforts as manipulative and slimey. (My own first-hand experience with this was civil, not criminal. Someone I had never met accused me of something absolutely nonsensical and filed a lawsuit against me. I thought I could reason with them, but this just made things worse. I would have been much better to approach the situation as though they were dangerously irrational. Just don't engage.)

stef25 5y ago
Surely there's a world where not every cop is bent on convicting the first guy that comes up in the conversation and every piece of evidence is seen as fake? It's totally true that you can give cops ammo against yourself without realizing and you must be very careful wrt lying and saying the wrong things. But there also has to be some kind of middle ground.
- sneak 5y ago
  Cops don't decide who gets convicted. Your statements suggest that you are ignorant of the basics of the process you are criticizing. Don't talk to the police under any circumstances. You cannot ever talk your way out of getting arrested. There is no middle ground. Watch the "don't talk to police" video linked in the thread. He explains that it is like a ratchet: statements can only hurt, it is illegal under the rules of evidence for your statements to the police to be used to exonerate you!
- alex_sf 5y ago
  The middle ground is bringing in a mediator on your behalf that is a neutral party to the issue. I.e., get a lawyer.

paxys 5y ago

Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE. It gives many such examples, including a very similar scenario than the one you brought up.