5 ms·

>The order targets ISPs and doesn't name Google but the company chose to voluntarily comply.

by deadalus 5y ago

postsantum 5y ago
Just a coincidence that Google goes all out on following the law in the country it uses for tax evading
- danmaz74 5y ago
  Unfortunately it's not tax evading, as it's legal.
  - luluganeta 5y ago
    It is legal, yet it is still tax evasion, even if one uses euphemisms like "tax optimization" and so on.
    - toyg 5y ago
      Talking about the distinction between tax evasion and tax avoidance was when I really understood the power of controlling language, and why the ruling classes strive for getting their kids educated since the dawn of time.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - HPsquared 5y ago
      There are two terms because they are different things: one is illegal and generally involves other illegal things such as fraud, while the other is legal 'gaming the system'. Gaming is not the same as cheating.
      - ohgodplsno 5y ago
        Go on, play games with your friends and abuse the tiniest rules and tell them "ah ah, it's not cheating". See how long you last. Not respecting the spirit of the law is illegal in most of europe, and it's merely a matter of money being thrown around, preventing any legal action. But every time it happens, Google is found guilty. See their latest 5 billion fine, see what happened with Ireland. It's "legal" because noone can spend the money to investigate them on their crimes.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        The difference seems to be mostly the amounts of money involved.
    - MadeThisToReply 5y ago
      Sorry, but you don't get to decide what words mean. "Tax evasion" is illegal by definition. "Tax avoidance" is legal. According to Wikipedia, the term "tax noncompliance" (or "tax avoision"... bleargh) can be used as a general term to refer to both of those things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_noncompliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_noncompliance
      - dredmorbius 5y ago
        Curiously, the interests which literally bankroll the making of laws and electing of legislators do get to define what words mean. "U.S. Policies Favor The Wealthy, Interest Groups, Study Shows" Gilens and Page analyzed 1,779 policy issues from 1981 to 2002 and compared changes to the preferences of median-income Americans, the top-earning 10 percent, and organized interest groups and industries. "Not only do ordinary citizens not have uniquely substantial power over policy decisions; they have little or no independent influence on policy at all," the researchers write in the article titled, "Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens." Affluent Americans, however, "have a quite substantial, highly significant, independent impact on policy," Gilens and Page write. Organized interest groups also "have a large, positive, highly significant impact upon public policy." https://www.huffpost.com/entry/government-wealthy-study_n_5154879 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/government-wealthy-study_n_51... Though this particular study is specific to the US, the relationship doubtless exists elsewhere. See also: "Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens" (2014) https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli... Alphabet Inc. (Google LLC's parent corporation) spent $27.4 million in contributions and $12.8 million in lobbying (2019) according to OpenSecrets. That's slightly more than I've managed, personally. https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/alphabet-inc/summary?id=d000067823 https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/alphabet-inc/summary?id=d00... Alphabet (Google), Facebook, and Microsoft are the three top spenders in EU lobbying: https://www.reuters.com/technology/google-facebook-microsoft-top-eu-lobbying-spending-study-2021-08-30/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/google-facebook-microsoft...
      - LinuxBender 5y ago
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    Whether it's legal or not greatly varies from one country to another. Some parts of their plan may be legal in isolation but huge corporations like Google are very much breaking tons of laws every single day (if only, privacy laws). Also "tax evasion" means evading to pay taxes. It may have more specific legal meaning in some places, but the general understanding is if you're a company who does business somewhere yet doesn't pay taxes, you're doing tax evasion.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    However, language isn't all about what's legal/illegal but also perception. Your average person is going to reasonably infer they use various countries to dodge taxes that they should reasonably be expected to pay if we take a holistic view of the world.

>The order targets ISPs and doesn't name Google but the company chose to voluntarily comply.

postsantum 5y ago

Just a coincidence that Google goes all out on following the law in the country it uses for tax evading

danmaz74 5y ago
Unfortunately it's not tax evading, as it's legal.
- luluganeta 5y ago
  It is legal, yet it is still tax evasion, even if one uses euphemisms like "tax optimization" and so on.
  - toyg 5y ago
    Talking about the distinction between tax evasion and tax avoidance was when I really understood the power of controlling language, and why the ruling classes strive for getting their kids educated since the dawn of time.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - HPsquared 5y ago
    There are two terms because they are different things: one is illegal and generally involves other illegal things such as fraud, while the other is legal 'gaming the system'. Gaming is not the same as cheating.
    - ohgodplsno 5y ago
      Go on, play games with your friends and abuse the tiniest rules and tell them "ah ah, it's not cheating". See how long you last. Not respecting the spirit of the law is illegal in most of europe, and it's merely a matter of money being thrown around, preventing any legal action. But every time it happens, Google is found guilty. See their latest 5 billion fine, see what happened with Ireland. It's "legal" because noone can spend the money to investigate them on their crimes.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      The difference seems to be mostly the amounts of money involved.
  - MadeThisToReply 5y ago
    Sorry, but you don't get to decide what words mean. "Tax evasion" is illegal by definition. "Tax avoidance" is legal. According to Wikipedia, the term "tax noncompliance" (or "tax avoision"... bleargh) can be used as a general term to refer to both of those things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_noncompliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_noncompliance
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      Curiously, the interests which literally bankroll the making of laws and electing of legislators do get to define what words mean. "U.S. Policies Favor The Wealthy, Interest Groups, Study Shows" Gilens and Page analyzed 1,779 policy issues from 1981 to 2002 and compared changes to the preferences of median-income Americans, the top-earning 10 percent, and organized interest groups and industries. "Not only do ordinary citizens not have uniquely substantial power over policy decisions; they have little or no independent influence on policy at all," the researchers write in the article titled, "Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens." Affluent Americans, however, "have a quite substantial, highly significant, independent impact on policy," Gilens and Page write. Organized interest groups also "have a large, positive, highly significant impact upon public policy." https://www.huffpost.com/entry/government-wealthy-study_n_5154879 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/government-wealthy-study_n_51... Though this particular study is specific to the US, the relationship doubtless exists elsewhere. See also: "Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens" (2014) https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli... Alphabet Inc. (Google LLC's parent corporation) spent $27.4 million in contributions and $12.8 million in lobbying (2019) according to OpenSecrets. That's slightly more than I've managed, personally. https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/alphabet-inc/summary?id=d000067823 https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/alphabet-inc/summary?id=d00... Alphabet (Google), Facebook, and Microsoft are the three top spenders in EU lobbying: https://www.reuters.com/technology/google-facebook-microsoft-top-eu-lobbying-spending-study-2021-08-30/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/google-facebook-microsoft...
    - LinuxBender 5y ago
- southerntofu 5y ago
  Whether it's legal or not greatly varies from one country to another. Some parts of their plan may be legal in isolation but huge corporations like Google are very much breaking tons of laws every single day (if only, privacy laws). Also "tax evasion" means evading to pay taxes. It may have more specific legal meaning in some places, but the general understanding is if you're a company who does business somewhere yet doesn't pay taxes, you're doing tax evasion.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  However, language isn't all about what's legal/illegal but also perception. Your average person is going to reasonably infer they use various countries to dodge taxes that they should reasonably be expected to pay if we take a holistic view of the world.