3 ms·

"How many divisions does the Pope have in the field?" They have no means to force a design on the cathedral that the French public dislikes.

dotancohen 5y ago
> They have no means to force a design on the cathedral that the French public dislikes. Historically, almost every time this has been true from a legal perspective yet challenged by the papacy, the papacy has won. I'm not saying that they will challenge it this time, but the papacy looks towards the next millennium, not the next decade or quarter as do most public institutions. For what it's worth, I'm neither Catholic nor Christian.
- sgift 5y ago
  It's easier to get your will if your opposition legitimates their rule by "god wills that I am the king" and you are the final authority on what god wills. I think that situation has changed a bit since the last time the papacy has won a conflict.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    Interesting choice of words - and I agree with it. But I would add that the theological aspect has usually been accompanied by the will of a large mass of people willing to disrupt order on behalf of the papacy. I believe that aspect still exists, even in secular France today, though to what degree I'm not sure. Likely, the secular French of today are as willing to fight unrest as those dedicated to the church are willing to fight for it. Holy wars are horrible. Best avoided, and both sides know that.
- seszett 5y ago
  That's not actually true from a legal perspective anyway. The church is in charge of maintaining furniture even in the buildings that are owned by the state. It's also not true that the papacy has always won when they challenged law, as it did initially challenge the law of 1905 by refusing to create a legal entity registered in France at the time, refusing to declare masses (as public reunions). In exchange, the state kept property of all furniture and non-cultual church property (presbyteries, seminaries, etc) without any clause for use by the Church. Many have been sold since then, or used for various purposes. The Church eventually caved in in 1924 but that was too late to regain use of these buildings. For the particular topic of the redesign of this cathedral though, I don't see the general public really caring about it, I don't see the church pushing for this design in particular either (this is just one proposition by one team, among many others) and I don't see the state caring much either beyond general considerations to choose between the various design proposals.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    > That's not actually true from a legal perspective anyway. The church is in charge of maintaining furniture even in the buildings that are owned by the state. Terrific point, thank you. I'm not aware of the specifics of the institutions in France. > It's also not true that the papacy has always won when they challenged law, [...] Yes, there have been exceptions. I added the word "almost" to my original comment. Thank you.

dotancohen 5y ago

> They have no means to force a design on the cathedral that the French public dislikes. Historically, almost every time this has been true from a legal perspective yet challenged by the papacy, the papacy has won. I'm not saying that they will challenge it this time, but the papacy looks towards the next millennium, not the next decade or quarter as do most public institutions. For what it's worth, I'm neither Catholic nor Christian.

sgift 5y ago
It's easier to get your will if your opposition legitimates their rule by "god wills that I am the king" and you are the final authority on what god wills. I think that situation has changed a bit since the last time the papacy has won a conflict.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  Interesting choice of words - and I agree with it. But I would add that the theological aspect has usually been accompanied by the will of a large mass of people willing to disrupt order on behalf of the papacy. I believe that aspect still exists, even in secular France today, though to what degree I'm not sure. Likely, the secular French of today are as willing to fight unrest as those dedicated to the church are willing to fight for it. Holy wars are horrible. Best avoided, and both sides know that.
seszett 5y ago
That's not actually true from a legal perspective anyway. The church is in charge of maintaining furniture even in the buildings that are owned by the state. It's also not true that the papacy has always won when they challenged law, as it did initially challenge the law of 1905 by refusing to create a legal entity registered in France at the time, refusing to declare masses (as public reunions). In exchange, the state kept property of all furniture and non-cultual church property (presbyteries, seminaries, etc) without any clause for use by the Church. Many have been sold since then, or used for various purposes. The Church eventually caved in in 1924 but that was too late to regain use of these buildings. For the particular topic of the redesign of this cathedral though, I don't see the general public really caring about it, I don't see the church pushing for this design in particular either (this is just one proposition by one team, among many others) and I don't see the state caring much either beyond general considerations to choose between the various design proposals.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  > That's not actually true from a legal perspective anyway. The church is in charge of maintaining furniture even in the buildings that are owned by the state. Terrific point, thank you. I'm not aware of the specifics of the institutions in France. > It's also not true that the papacy has always won when they challenged law, [...] Yes, there have been exceptions. I added the word "almost" to my original comment. Thank you.