3 ms·

There is a possibility that we will see a reversion of mass tourism that clogged big cities and monuments in the decades coming. This move looks like trying to

There is a possibility that we will see a reversion of mass tourism that clogged big cities and monuments in the decades coming. This move looks like trying to fight the previous war. Anyway, as the article states, the catholic church does not own Notre-Dame. Since the revolution, it belongs to the french state so this debate is probably a storm in a teapot.

bnegreve 5y ago
> This move looks like trying to fight the previous war. With 12 millions visitors per year (pre fire/covid), they are probably willing to take that risk.
dmix 5y ago
> But Culot argues that the government “has already approved a compromise by leaving the Church the initiative for the interior of the cathedral”
- skywal_l 5y ago
  Two lines above: > Father Drouin’s proposed interior redesign of Notre Dame will be submitted to France’s national cultural heritage commission on 9 December and the culture minister, Roselyne Bachelot, may have the final say on matters [...] As I said: teapot.
- sbierwagen 5y ago
  "How many divisions does the Pope have in the field?" They have no means to force a design on the cathedral that the French public dislikes.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    > They have no means to force a design on the cathedral that the French public dislikes. Historically, almost every time this has been true from a legal perspective yet challenged by the papacy, the papacy has won. I'm not saying that they will challenge it this time, but the papacy looks towards the next millennium, not the next decade or quarter as do most public institutions. For what it's worth, I'm neither Catholic nor Christian.
    - sgift 5y ago
      It's easier to get your will if your opposition legitimates their rule by "god wills that I am the king" and you are the final authority on what god wills. I think that situation has changed a bit since the last time the papacy has won a conflict.
      - dotancohen 5y ago
        Interesting choice of words - and I agree with it. But I would add that the theological aspect has usually been accompanied by the will of a large mass of people willing to disrupt order on behalf of the papacy. I believe that aspect still exists, even in secular France today, though to what degree I'm not sure. Likely, the secular French of today are as willing to fight unrest as those dedicated to the church are willing to fight for it. Holy wars are horrible. Best avoided, and both sides know that.
    - seszett 5y ago
      That's not actually true from a legal perspective anyway. The church is in charge of maintaining furniture even in the buildings that are owned by the state. It's also not true that the papacy has always won when they challenged law, as it did initially challenge the law of 1905 by refusing to create a legal entity registered in France at the time, refusing to declare masses (as public reunions). In exchange, the state kept property of all furniture and non-cultual church property (presbyteries, seminaries, etc) without any clause for use by the Church. Many have been sold since then, or used for various purposes. The Church eventually caved in in 1924 but that was too late to regain use of these buildings. For the particular topic of the redesign of this cathedral though, I don't see the general public really caring about it, I don't see the church pushing for this design in particular either (this is just one proposition by one team, among many others) and I don't see the state caring much either beyond general considerations to choose between the various design proposals.
      - dotancohen 5y ago
        > That's not actually true from a legal perspective anyway. The church is in charge of maintaining furniture even in the buildings that are owned by the state. Terrific point, thank you. I'm not aware of the specifics of the institutions in France. > It's also not true that the papacy has always won when they challenged law, [...] Yes, there have been exceptions. I added the word "almost" to my original comment. Thank you.

bnegreve 5y ago

> This move looks like trying to fight the previous war. With 12 millions visitors per year (pre fire/covid), they are probably willing to take that risk.

dmix 5y ago

> But Culot argues that the government “has already approved a compromise by leaving the Church the initiative for the interior of the cathedral”

skywal_l 5y ago
Two lines above: > Father Drouin’s proposed interior redesign of Notre Dame will be submitted to France’s national cultural heritage commission on 9 December and the culture minister, Roselyne Bachelot, may have the final say on matters [...] As I said: teapot.
sbierwagen 5y ago
"How many divisions does the Pope have in the field?" They have no means to force a design on the cathedral that the French public dislikes.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  > They have no means to force a design on the cathedral that the French public dislikes. Historically, almost every time this has been true from a legal perspective yet challenged by the papacy, the papacy has won. I'm not saying that they will challenge it this time, but the papacy looks towards the next millennium, not the next decade or quarter as do most public institutions. For what it's worth, I'm neither Catholic nor Christian.
  - sgift 5y ago
    It's easier to get your will if your opposition legitimates their rule by "god wills that I am the king" and you are the final authority on what god wills. I think that situation has changed a bit since the last time the papacy has won a conflict.
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      Interesting choice of words - and I agree with it. But I would add that the theological aspect has usually been accompanied by the will of a large mass of people willing to disrupt order on behalf of the papacy. I believe that aspect still exists, even in secular France today, though to what degree I'm not sure. Likely, the secular French of today are as willing to fight unrest as those dedicated to the church are willing to fight for it. Holy wars are horrible. Best avoided, and both sides know that.
  - seszett 5y ago
    That's not actually true from a legal perspective anyway. The church is in charge of maintaining furniture even in the buildings that are owned by the state. It's also not true that the papacy has always won when they challenged law, as it did initially challenge the law of 1905 by refusing to create a legal entity registered in France at the time, refusing to declare masses (as public reunions). In exchange, the state kept property of all furniture and non-cultual church property (presbyteries, seminaries, etc) without any clause for use by the Church. Many have been sold since then, or used for various purposes. The Church eventually caved in in 1924 but that was too late to regain use of these buildings. For the particular topic of the redesign of this cathedral though, I don't see the general public really caring about it, I don't see the church pushing for this design in particular either (this is just one proposition by one team, among many others) and I don't see the state caring much either beyond general considerations to choose between the various design proposals.
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      > That's not actually true from a legal perspective anyway. The church is in charge of maintaining furniture even in the buildings that are owned by the state. Terrific point, thank you. I'm not aware of the specifics of the institutions in France. > It's also not true that the papacy has always won when they challenged law, [...] Yes, there have been exceptions. I added the word "almost" to my original comment. Thank you.