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It's a technology, and open source. You could say it is literally the opposite of a scam. Alternatively, you could say everything is a scam. For example the US

It's a technology, and open source. You could say it is literally the opposite of a scam. Alternatively, you could say everything is a scam. For example the USA is a scam. It only exists because people play along and collectively decide it exists. At most you could argue that tanks would come and force people to play along if they stopped. So is that perhaps your threshold for something not being a scam? What is the minimum number of tanks that stand ready to enforce an idea, to make you call it "not a scam anymore"?

BoorishBears 5y ago
I'm sorry but if the US dollar was deflated at the rate Bitcoin has no one would continue to play along. These kinds of arguments held water when BTC doubled after two years or something, not anymore.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Clearly people are playing along with Bitcoin, so I don't see your point? I also don't fully understand what you are saying. You mean if dollar would gain in value as fast as Bitcoin, people would stop using dollars?
  - BoorishBears 5y ago
    > You mean if dollar would gain in value as fast as Bitcoin, people would stop using dollars? Yes, did you not realize that?! Are you really rallying this hard against people discarding its economic value without understanding something as basic as deflation? - Deflation is more deadly to a currency than inflation. By far. You reduce interest rates to 0% and then what? You can try negative interest rates, but with the kind of deflation BTC has seen you would need negative triple digit interest rates which is a complete absurdity. You'd probably see the government outlaw physical cash to boot, forcing you to use a bank and forcing the bank to constantly siphon your money if you don't spend it quickly enough. It would be a literal hellscape.
    - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
      I know about the usual "deflation scares" by economists and governments. I think they are a bit overblown, though. They seem to assume people spend money just for fun. But people also spend money because they need things. If you are hungry, you have to go out and buy food. It doesn't matter that your 1$ may be worth 10$ tomorrow, if you need an Apple now or you will starve. So I think people would still be spending, and things would even out after a while. I don't believe we need those centralized banks manipulating prices to keep some inflation rate so that people keep spending. I also don't think Bitcoin will just keep doubling every year forever. But all that is besides the point. As for "people discarding the economic value of Bitcoin", clearly right now it has value, so those people are wrong. Whether it will still have value next year is another question. But right now, you can sell 1 Bitcoin for 56000$, so it provably has value.
      - BoorishBears 5y ago
        You are completely out of your depth, you have no idea what you're talking about, and it is not worth any effort to explain to you how a currency increasing in value by 10,000% in 5 years would cripple the economy. Understanding why that would be disastrous to the point of irrevocably destroying a nation and leaving millions in abject poverty should be table stakes when you have the bravado to shrug off the fear mongering economists who study this stuff for a living.
        kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
        Bitcoin exists and hasn't left millions in abject poverty yet. Maybe you are the one who is clueless? Are there even any examples of deflation ruining things, apart from Krugman's babysitting exchange? I don't think we should hinge the faith of nations on that one story, which may as well have many other explanations besides the deflation theory. You don't even know if BTC would increase by 10000% in 5 years, if the nation would run on it. Also new currencies have been created a lot of times in the past, technically their value would also have been increasing by 10000% over night. Economists have lots of different opinions, you can not simply appeal to "economists say x". There are economists advocating socialism and economists advocating capitalism, for example. There are even economists advocating Bitcoin.
dmitriid 5y ago
> It's a technology, and open source. You could say it is literally the opposite of a scam. The fact that it's technology, and that it's opensource doesn't mean it's not used for scams (and almost exclusively for scams).
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Being used for scams is not the same as being a scam. Dollars are being used for scams all the time. In what sense do you claim BTC is used "almost exclusively for scams"? Seems to me for the most part it is simply being traded. Do you mean Ransomware? What fraction of BTC transactions happen because of that?
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > Being used for scams is not the same as being a scam. You have to read context and understand what people are saying. When people say "Bitcoin is scam" they mean the way it's used, not the tech itself. > In what sense do you claim BTC is used "almost exclusively for scams"? In the sense of the word scam. I was wrong though. Bitcoin is used almost exclusively for two things: scams and hoarding. There are almost no other uses. > Do you mean Ransomware? No, I don't.
    - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
      "When people say "Bitcoin is scam" they mean the way it's used, not the tech itself." It just comes across as "those people have no idea what they are talking about". Honestly I don't care that much about people using BTC for scams. I care about the tech. I find it difficult when people say "BTC will be worth xxxxxxxx$ soon". That kind of statement may be scammy, or at least speculative. But that is different from the tech.
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        > It just comes across as "those people have no idea what they are talking about". It doesn't. When the tech is exclusively used for hoarding and scamming, it becomes synonymous with its use. > Honestly I don't care that much about people using BTC for scams. I care about the tech. This really is a non-sensical statement. Tech doesn't exist in a vacuum.
tunap 5y ago
Most legal fictions can effectively be regarded a scam, if enough people don't buy into it(and by those who don't buy into it). MtGox & Bitfinex & the Satoshi mystery should have been enough to end cryptocurrency's future as a security instrument. They weren't. There's more than 1 fool born every minute, I suppose.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  Seeing the Satoshi mystery as a discrediting factor points to a genetic fallacy, doesn't it? Does it really matter who made it, as long as it is open? I am aware of the pre-mined Satoshi coins, but it's perfectly possible that the key to those got lost forever by now if they weren't explicitly designed as a pump & dump/kill switch for Satoshi's benefit.
  - tunap 5y ago
    Not really, IMO. Knowing the actors in a scenario often illuminates more than the declared intentions & motivations. I can't help but refer to MS's embracing Linux, for example.

BoorishBears 5y ago

I'm sorry but if the US dollar was deflated at the rate Bitcoin has no one would continue to play along. These kinds of arguments held water when BTC doubled after two years or something, not anymore.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
Clearly people are playing along with Bitcoin, so I don't see your point? I also don't fully understand what you are saying. You mean if dollar would gain in value as fast as Bitcoin, people would stop using dollars?
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  > You mean if dollar would gain in value as fast as Bitcoin, people would stop using dollars? Yes, did you not realize that?! Are you really rallying this hard against people discarding its economic value without understanding something as basic as deflation? - Deflation is more deadly to a currency than inflation. By far. You reduce interest rates to 0% and then what? You can try negative interest rates, but with the kind of deflation BTC has seen you would need negative triple digit interest rates which is a complete absurdity. You'd probably see the government outlaw physical cash to boot, forcing you to use a bank and forcing the bank to constantly siphon your money if you don't spend it quickly enough. It would be a literal hellscape.
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    I know about the usual "deflation scares" by economists and governments. I think they are a bit overblown, though. They seem to assume people spend money just for fun. But people also spend money because they need things. If you are hungry, you have to go out and buy food. It doesn't matter that your 1$ may be worth 10$ tomorrow, if you need an Apple now or you will starve. So I think people would still be spending, and things would even out after a while. I don't believe we need those centralized banks manipulating prices to keep some inflation rate so that people keep spending. I also don't think Bitcoin will just keep doubling every year forever. But all that is besides the point. As for "people discarding the economic value of Bitcoin", clearly right now it has value, so those people are wrong. Whether it will still have value next year is another question. But right now, you can sell 1 Bitcoin for 56000$, so it provably has value.
    - BoorishBears 5y ago
      You are completely out of your depth, you have no idea what you're talking about, and it is not worth any effort to explain to you how a currency increasing in value by 10,000% in 5 years would cripple the economy. Understanding why that would be disastrous to the point of irrevocably destroying a nation and leaving millions in abject poverty should be table stakes when you have the bravado to shrug off the fear mongering economists who study this stuff for a living.
      - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
        Bitcoin exists and hasn't left millions in abject poverty yet. Maybe you are the one who is clueless? Are there even any examples of deflation ruining things, apart from Krugman's babysitting exchange? I don't think we should hinge the faith of nations on that one story, which may as well have many other explanations besides the deflation theory. You don't even know if BTC would increase by 10000% in 5 years, if the nation would run on it. Also new currencies have been created a lot of times in the past, technically their value would also have been increasing by 10000% over night. Economists have lots of different opinions, you can not simply appeal to "economists say x". There are economists advocating socialism and economists advocating capitalism, for example. There are even economists advocating Bitcoin.

dmitriid 5y ago

> It's a technology, and open source. You could say it is literally the opposite of a scam. The fact that it's technology, and that it's opensource doesn't mean it's not used for scams (and almost exclusively for scams).

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
Being used for scams is not the same as being a scam. Dollars are being used for scams all the time. In what sense do you claim BTC is used "almost exclusively for scams"? Seems to me for the most part it is simply being traded. Do you mean Ransomware? What fraction of BTC transactions happen because of that?
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > Being used for scams is not the same as being a scam. You have to read context and understand what people are saying. When people say "Bitcoin is scam" they mean the way it's used, not the tech itself. > In what sense do you claim BTC is used "almost exclusively for scams"? In the sense of the word scam. I was wrong though. Bitcoin is used almost exclusively for two things: scams and hoarding. There are almost no other uses. > Do you mean Ransomware? No, I don't.
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    "When people say "Bitcoin is scam" they mean the way it's used, not the tech itself." It just comes across as "those people have no idea what they are talking about". Honestly I don't care that much about people using BTC for scams. I care about the tech. I find it difficult when people say "BTC will be worth xxxxxxxx$ soon". That kind of statement may be scammy, or at least speculative. But that is different from the tech.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      > It just comes across as "those people have no idea what they are talking about". It doesn't. When the tech is exclusively used for hoarding and scamming, it becomes synonymous with its use. > Honestly I don't care that much about people using BTC for scams. I care about the tech. This really is a non-sensical statement. Tech doesn't exist in a vacuum.

tunap 5y ago

Most legal fictions can effectively be regarded a scam, if enough people don't buy into it(and by those who don't buy into it). MtGox & Bitfinex & the Satoshi mystery should have been enough to end cryptocurrency's future as a security instrument. They weren't. There's more than 1 fool born every minute, I suppose.

selfhoster11 5y ago
Seeing the Satoshi mystery as a discrediting factor points to a genetic fallacy, doesn't it? Does it really matter who made it, as long as it is open? I am aware of the pre-mined Satoshi coins, but it's perfectly possible that the key to those got lost forever by now if they weren't explicitly designed as a pump & dump/kill switch for Satoshi's benefit.
- tunap 5y ago
  Not really, IMO. Knowing the actors in a scenario often illuminates more than the declared intentions & motivations. I can't help but refer to MS's embracing Linux, for example.