6 ms·

Catholic church's proposed redesign of Notre Dame interior provokes outrage

22 points by rmason 5y ago

renewiltord 5y ago
Well, most people have massive change aversion. So, it may well be that this redesign is rubbish. Or that it is great. The thing is that irrespective of its quality, any redesign would provoke outrage. Which makes the outrage kind of pointless as a measure of quality. M
- omnicognate 5y ago
  Well, in this case there's a question as to whether a redesign is necessary at all, vs recreating what was there before the fire, so objecting to it without seeing details of the design (however great they might turn out to be) isn't necessarily irrational. Also there are some details given in the article: contemporary art, luminous benches, etc. Also, objection isn't necessarily outrage. I'm pretty skeptical of the proposal as described, but I'm not going to Paris with a pitchfork. Do our reactions to everything have to be interpreted in the most extreme, binary way possible?
bobthechef 5y ago
An analogy with the hermeneutic of continuity is appropriate. Breaking with Tradition (typically accomplished by preserving original texts, but attaching completely new meanings to the words) wrecks that continuity and cuts people off from the lifeblood of the Faith. Architecture reflects the liturgy, and, as we say, lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi, it is to be fully expected that this modernist rupture would produce silly architecture and appeals to changing architectural styles in the past fall flat when we begin to understand this point. While Vatian II was a licit council, the aftermath of confusion produced a playground for modernist opportunists who ravaged the Church with the most preposterous attempts to remake the Church in the image of the World instead of the other way around. Watch out for phrases like "making the faith more relevant". The more "relevant" the Church has become, the more it resembled the World, the more apostasy it witnessed: if mass is no longer the unbloody sacrifice, but a mediocre rock concert full of sappy music, then what's the point? So I don't really buy any of these stale boomer arguments about needing to "adapt to the times". Certainly, one may respond to the times, but when the word "adapt" is used, this is just a euphemism for remodeling, usually in an underhanded way. In any case, France, the eldest daughter of the Church, is a post-Catholic country. Notre Dame, for most French, has already been a museum. All this does is formalize the transition.
rmason 5y ago
I'm not a Catholic, but I am religious. First visited the Notre Dame Cathedral in 1975. Kind of hard to put it in words but it was a place of great beauty and at the same time I felt a deep sense of spirituality. The feeling of spirituality was present the entire time that I was in the building. The last thing I'd want this old church to become is the latest Disneyesque attraction. Old school cool is still the preferred way to go.
- deleted 5y ago
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- hef19898 5y ago
  I am by no means religious, and yet there are certain places that just feel special. Old churches and monasteries for example, regardless of where they are in the world. I've never been to Notre Dame, but Mt. St. Michel has that feeling. As do medieval churches and cathedrals in general. Or monasteries in the Himalaya. Or Petra. No modern day church comes close to that, and even medieval churches that were modernized, Barock or later, loose a lot of that feeling.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    I feel the same way, I'm not religious too and still feel that those places are very special. I think it helps me empathise with religious people. When I'm in a church, I can understand a little bit better what people mean when they say they are religious, have faith, believe in God.
  - dagw 5y ago
    No modern day church comes close to that That is just not true. There are plenty of great modern day churches if you go looking for them, they're just not tourist attractions.
- dkdbejwi383 5y ago
  How much of that je ne sais quois can be attributed to the age of the building, the scale and the handcrafted nature? Will that feeling be lost if a 1:1 replica is created? I wonder what the original designers and craftspeople would have thought? If they would be in favour of a facsimile or an entirely new reinvention using contemporary architectural ideas
skywal_l 5y ago
There is a possibility that we will see a reversion of mass tourism that clogged big cities and monuments in the decades coming. This move looks like trying to fight the previous war. Anyway, as the article states, the catholic church does not own Notre-Dame. Since the revolution, it belongs to the french state so this debate is probably a storm in a teapot.
- bnegreve 5y ago
  > This move looks like trying to fight the previous war. With 12 millions visitors per year (pre fire/covid), they are probably willing to take that risk.
- dmix 5y ago
  > But Culot argues that the government “has already approved a compromise by leaving the Church the initiative for the interior of the cathedral”
  - skywal_l 5y ago
    Two lines above: > Father Drouin’s proposed interior redesign of Notre Dame will be submitted to France’s national cultural heritage commission on 9 December and the culture minister, Roselyne Bachelot, may have the final say on matters [...] As I said: teapot.
  - sbierwagen 5y ago
    "How many divisions does the Pope have in the field?" They have no means to force a design on the cathedral that the French public dislikes.
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      > They have no means to force a design on the cathedral that the French public dislikes. Historically, almost every time this has been true from a legal perspective yet challenged by the papacy, the papacy has won. I'm not saying that they will challenge it this time, but the papacy looks towards the next millennium, not the next decade or quarter as do most public institutions. For what it's worth, I'm neither Catholic nor Christian.
justicezyx 5y ago
I would be automatically on board on a plan that restore it to its original form. That's what's called "repair the old to be like old" (修旧如旧 in Chinese), one core principle of most antique repair/maintenance projects.
- Trombone12 5y ago
  How far back is the "original"? Is it to the state before the 1840's restoration?
- Bayart 5y ago
  Considering how utterly dreadful « restoration » is in mainland China, I'd rather stick to our procedures.
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    I wonder what's your evidence of implying China's restoration is poor or bad. Restoration in the forbidden City has been remarkable. https://youtu.be/avrRiNUmOlY https://youtu.be/avrRiNUmOlY it clearly has kept its original style and sentiment.
- dagw 5y ago
  plan that restore it to its original form Which "original form". The 12th Century form? 13th Century? 15th? 19th? The way it looked a week before the fire? I can assure you that if they restored to its true original form people would be far more pissed about that than any possible "modern" design.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  From the perspective of the Church, maximizing the opportunity for updating spaces based on the current models of liturgical practice and pastoral (including evangelization) needs is rather more the default than “repair the old to be like the old”.
Trombone12 5y ago
> Last Friday, the British conservative newspaper The Telegraph denounced the reimagined Notre Dame as a “politically correct Disneyland” and an “experimental showroom”. Some sort of reverse psychology plot to get the French to go ahead with the plans I presume?
- TuringTest 5y ago
  > “It’s Notre Dame de Paris turned into Disneyland,” claims the Paris-based architect Maurice Culot, the author of several books on religious architecture in the 19th century. “It does not make any sense” Cathedrals were the theme parks of their era, expensive buildings dedicated to work as an economic focal point and gather visitors from far away, to expose them to a narrative journey on a single theme. So it only makes sense that they rebuilt it for the same *purpose*, adapted to today's conditions. People complain about not rebuilding it in the same *style* as in the twelfth century, but we are not in the same society so the narratives from that time would not work the same way.
  - Thorentis 5y ago
    That's like saying every historical monument or building should be redesigned in a modern context. No thanks.
    - dagw 5y ago
      If the building hadn't been redesigned in a modern context several times throughout its life, it would have been an old dilapidated stone church and not the icon it is today. The reason people care about this church and that it resonated with people throughout history is that it has continuously been redesigned and renovated in a modern context.
      - rob74 5y ago
        Yes, but usually that's done with respect for what's already there, not "hey we have millions of donations, let's throw all this old junk away and install a multimedia show for tourists instead". Quotes to support my statement: > Altars in the chapels would also be displaced and only four confessionals maintained on the ground floor. > So the chapels, some of which could be renamed after Asia, Africa and other themes, should display “multiple offerings” such as light projections of Bible quotes in foreign languages including Chinese.
kome 5y ago
I am watching the presentation in French... is the "The Telegraph" on drugs? The guy is literally re-organizing the space using theological reasons first and foremost - not touristic considerations. Literally, he is thinking how people can understand catholic faith better by organizing the cathedral spaces in a way that is spiritually more meaningful. Once again: don't trust the media.
- Hokusai 5y ago
  > is the "The Telegraph" on drugs? It's the Telegraph talking about France. > don't trust the media I am not a billionaire with my own secret service. I need to trust dinner general media. And I trust a lot of the media, but not everyone, and some more in some topics than others. How do you choose who to trust?
  - deleted 5y ago
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- altacc 5y ago
  The Telegraph is mainlining drugs which have side effect of thinking that everything was better in the old days and nothing should ever change as change scares the old people. It is a posh, old school conservative tabloid and very flexible on what it considers to be the truth.
olliej 5y ago
I mean it's a fairly simple question right? It's either property of the Catholic Church, and so it's their choice what to do with it, after all it is their money, and they don't receive any financial support or tax breaks from the government. Or it's public property, in which case it's the choice of the public and the Catholic Church has no input.
- gambiting 5y ago
  I mean, even if it wasn't property of the church it wouldn't be as simple as that. You could ask this question about everything - if a museum receives substantial grants to operate, is it still within the decision of its owner to do with it as they please, or not? If the money was given without any specific restrictions then I'd say yes, it is entirely within their view.
  - beardyw 5y ago
    Certainly in the Anglican church if you give a thing (rather than money) it becomes a persistent issue since disposing of it in any way is really difficult. It is not simple ownership as you or I might understand.
- markvdb 5y ago
  It's trickier than you think from a legal perspective because of the peculiarities of French history.
- seszett 5y ago
  It's property of the state, and the church doesn't receive financial support or tax breaks, but it's still in charge of maintaining the interior and furniture of the buildings they use. Some of the furniture is property of the state (what dates from before 1905, but now always everything) and some is property of the church. However, this is also a historical monument and the state has to ensure that they are well-maintained (including parts that are privately owned) and not disfigured, and can grant financial support for restorations when needed.
dustintrex 5y ago
Anybody got a better link of what it will look like? The article has only one tiny image and links to a recording of a 30-minute Zoom call: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB_Dm9pN4FQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB_Dm9pN4FQ
- altacc 5y ago
  > Father Drouin’s proposed interior redesign of Notre Dame will be submitted to France’s national cultural heritage commission on 9 December As is frustratingly common, the media is stirring up opinion based on vague details and assumptions from a 30 minute video call in May. If there was more detail available it would be more difficult to tell people what to think.
- TuringTest 5y ago
  They start showing images around minute 18: https://youtu.be/uB_Dm9pN4FQ?t=1076 https://youtu.be/uB_Dm9pN4FQ?t=1076
markvdb 5y ago
This place is not just a museum. It is also a place of worship. As long as nothing of historical value is damaged any further than the devastating fire has already managed to damage, it stands to reason for the catholic church to have a large input in the design. The catholic cleric responsible mentions this building with its 800 years of history has always been a living building. I find his argument to make a lot of sense. This also holds from a legal perspective. The building might be owned by the state. That does not mean the state gets to decide all of the restauration. There's a fascinating piece of history to read up on, including the concordat between the catholic church of France and Napoleon [0], and the 1905 law on separation of church and state [1]. Another way to rebuild could be to do what sometimes happens to historical organ rebuilds. Building back to the historical state at a specific point in time could be a very interesting, albeit expensive option. I would very much be interested in seeing Notre Dame's inside painted in very vivid colors like research suggests it might have been during the gothic era. And since everyone and their cat seems to be mentioning their religious affiliation or lack thereof... I say this as a pastafarian. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordat_of_1801 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordat_of_1801 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separation_of_the_Churches_and_the_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separat...
schleck8 5y ago
> “Chinese visitors may not necessarily understand the Nativity,” said the priest. How about building two large parking lots on the Notre Dame square then for Chinese tourist buses to drive directly up to the building. And offer selfie sticks next to the altar. Seriously, what kind of insane logic is this... The church is not a tourism bureau
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > The church is not a tourism bureau Yeah, it is. Or, rather, it is, as a central function a propaganda [0] bureau, and leveraging tourism has proven to be a useful and important component of that in the modern world. [0] the modern use of the term, after all, derives ultimately from the former name of the Church body currently known in English as the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, which used to be the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, or in its Latin short form, Propaganda fide.
- seszett 5y ago
  > what kind of insane logic is this What's the problem with explaining Christian concepts in a Christian building that is visited by many non-Christian visitors? I thought proselytism was a large point of these religions, so it only seems logical to take advantage of this opportunity for explaining their faith to potential new clients.
- dagw 5y ago
  The church is not a tourism bureau Depends on who you talk to. If you ask the people that own the church building (the French State) then yes, it's all about tourism. If you talk to the capital C Church then it is probably primarily about propaganda (although they probably wouldn't call it that). They don't want Chinese tourists to walk around and come away thinking "wow that was a neat old building" they want the Chinese tourists to come away with a appreciation and interest in Catholicisms that can be a wedge towards conversion. Showing them some relics of western "mysticism" they do not understand is not conducive to that goal. The people who care about if it's a nice space for Sunday Mass are by all accounts the least important people in this equation.
Bayart 5y ago
To clear some confusion : the French state owns the building and the Church is given use of it for cultural, historical and patrimonial considerations (it's just better for a building to keep its original use on-going if you want it to survive as best as possible). In that framework, it's normal for the religious authorities to decide of the interior decoration to the extent it's impermanent. The article makes it sound much worse than it is. The truth is the Church makes stylistic choices that some people (including myself) don't like and they end up making a fuss about it.
eska 5y ago
This makes me think of my visit to castles in Japan. Most of them were destroyed by natural disasters or fire at some point and had to be rebuilt. Some castles were rebuilt in their original style while some were modernized. When I visited the ones rebuilt in the original style I felt like I entered a time machine and the history and culture I had learned about felt very real and near, and I felt motivated to learn more. You look at Osaka castle from the outside and it’s majestic. But once you enter it’s just a f*king museum. You completely forget you’re in a castle. It still pisses me off how one can not only neglect but destroy their heritage like that.

22 points by rmason 5y ago

Well, most people have massive change aversion. So, it may well be that this redesign is rubbish. Or that it is great. The thing is that irrespective of its quality, any redesign would provoke outrage. Which makes the outrage kind of pointless as a measure of quality. M

omnicognate 5y ago
Well, in this case there's a question as to whether a redesign is necessary at all, vs recreating what was there before the fire, so objecting to it without seeing details of the design (however great they might turn out to be) isn't necessarily irrational. Also there are some details given in the article: contemporary art, luminous benches, etc. Also, objection isn't necessarily outrage. I'm pretty skeptical of the proposal as described, but I'm not going to Paris with a pitchfork. Do our reactions to everything have to be interpreted in the most extreme, binary way possible?

bobthechef 5y ago

An analogy with the hermeneutic of continuity is appropriate. Breaking with Tradition (typically accomplished by preserving original texts, but attaching completely new meanings to the words) wrecks that continuity and cuts people off from the lifeblood of the Faith. Architecture reflects the liturgy, and, as we say, lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi, it is to be fully expected that this modernist rupture would produce silly architecture and appeals to changing architectural styles in the past fall flat when we begin to understand this point. While Vatian II was a licit council, the aftermath of confusion produced a playground for modernist opportunists who ravaged the Church with the most preposterous attempts to remake the Church in the image of the World instead of the other way around. Watch out for phrases like "making the faith more relevant". The more "relevant" the Church has become, the more it resembled the World, the more apostasy it witnessed: if mass is no longer the unbloody sacrifice, but a mediocre rock concert full of sappy music, then what's the point? So I don't really buy any of these stale boomer arguments about needing to "adapt to the times". Certainly, one may respond to the times, but when the word "adapt" is used, this is just a euphemism for remodeling, usually in an underhanded way. In any case, France, the eldest daughter of the Church, is a post-Catholic country. Notre Dame, for most French, has already been a museum. All this does is formalize the transition.

rmason 5y ago

I'm not a Catholic, but I am religious. First visited the Notre Dame Cathedral in 1975. Kind of hard to put it in words but it was a place of great beauty and at the same time I felt a deep sense of spirituality. The feeling of spirituality was present the entire time that I was in the building. The last thing I'd want this old church to become is the latest Disneyesque attraction. Old school cool is still the preferred way to go.

deleted 5y ago
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hef19898 5y ago
I am by no means religious, and yet there are certain places that just feel special. Old churches and monasteries for example, regardless of where they are in the world. I've never been to Notre Dame, but Mt. St. Michel has that feeling. As do medieval churches and cathedrals in general. Or monasteries in the Himalaya. Or Petra. No modern day church comes close to that, and even medieval churches that were modernized, Barock or later, loose a lot of that feeling.
- Zababa 5y ago
  I feel the same way, I'm not religious too and still feel that those places are very special. I think it helps me empathise with religious people. When I'm in a church, I can understand a little bit better what people mean when they say they are religious, have faith, believe in God.
- dagw 5y ago
  No modern day church comes close to that That is just not true. There are plenty of great modern day churches if you go looking for them, they're just not tourist attractions.
dkdbejwi383 5y ago
How much of that je ne sais quois can be attributed to the age of the building, the scale and the handcrafted nature? Will that feeling be lost if a 1:1 replica is created? I wonder what the original designers and craftspeople would have thought? If they would be in favour of a facsimile or an entirely new reinvention using contemporary architectural ideas

skywal_l 5y ago

There is a possibility that we will see a reversion of mass tourism that clogged big cities and monuments in the decades coming. This move looks like trying to fight the previous war. Anyway, as the article states, the catholic church does not own Notre-Dame. Since the revolution, it belongs to the french state so this debate is probably a storm in a teapot.

bnegreve 5y ago
> This move looks like trying to fight the previous war. With 12 millions visitors per year (pre fire/covid), they are probably willing to take that risk.
dmix 5y ago
> But Culot argues that the government “has already approved a compromise by leaving the Church the initiative for the interior of the cathedral”
- skywal_l 5y ago
  Two lines above: > Father Drouin’s proposed interior redesign of Notre Dame will be submitted to France’s national cultural heritage commission on 9 December and the culture minister, Roselyne Bachelot, may have the final say on matters [...] As I said: teapot.
- sbierwagen 5y ago
  "How many divisions does the Pope have in the field?" They have no means to force a design on the cathedral that the French public dislikes.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    > They have no means to force a design on the cathedral that the French public dislikes. Historically, almost every time this has been true from a legal perspective yet challenged by the papacy, the papacy has won. I'm not saying that they will challenge it this time, but the papacy looks towards the next millennium, not the next decade or quarter as do most public institutions. For what it's worth, I'm neither Catholic nor Christian.

justicezyx 5y ago

I would be automatically on board on a plan that restore it to its original form. That's what's called "repair the old to be like old" (修旧如旧 in Chinese), one core principle of most antique repair/maintenance projects.

Trombone12 5y ago
How far back is the "original"? Is it to the state before the 1840's restoration?
Bayart 5y ago
Considering how utterly dreadful « restoration » is in mainland China, I'd rather stick to our procedures.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  I wonder what's your evidence of implying China's restoration is poor or bad. Restoration in the forbidden City has been remarkable. https://youtu.be/avrRiNUmOlY https://youtu.be/avrRiNUmOlY it clearly has kept its original style and sentiment.
dagw 5y ago
plan that restore it to its original form Which "original form". The 12th Century form? 13th Century? 15th? 19th? The way it looked a week before the fire? I can assure you that if they restored to its true original form people would be far more pissed about that than any possible "modern" design.
dragonwriter 5y ago
From the perspective of the Church, maximizing the opportunity for updating spaces based on the current models of liturgical practice and pastoral (including evangelization) needs is rather more the default than “repair the old to be like the old”.

Trombone12 5y ago

> Last Friday, the British conservative newspaper The Telegraph denounced the reimagined Notre Dame as a “politically correct Disneyland” and an “experimental showroom”. Some sort of reverse psychology plot to get the French to go ahead with the plans I presume?

TuringTest 5y ago
> “It’s Notre Dame de Paris turned into Disneyland,” claims the Paris-based architect Maurice Culot, the author of several books on religious architecture in the 19th century. “It does not make any sense” Cathedrals were the theme parks of their era, expensive buildings dedicated to work as an economic focal point and gather visitors from far away, to expose them to a narrative journey on a single theme. So it only makes sense that they rebuilt it for the same *purpose*, adapted to today's conditions. People complain about not rebuilding it in the same *style* as in the twelfth century, but we are not in the same society so the narratives from that time would not work the same way.
- Thorentis 5y ago
  That's like saying every historical monument or building should be redesigned in a modern context. No thanks.
  - dagw 5y ago
    If the building hadn't been redesigned in a modern context several times throughout its life, it would have been an old dilapidated stone church and not the icon it is today. The reason people care about this church and that it resonated with people throughout history is that it has continuously been redesigned and renovated in a modern context.
    - rob74 5y ago
      Yes, but usually that's done with respect for what's already there, not "hey we have millions of donations, let's throw all this old junk away and install a multimedia show for tourists instead". Quotes to support my statement: > Altars in the chapels would also be displaced and only four confessionals maintained on the ground floor. > So the chapels, some of which could be renamed after Asia, Africa and other themes, should display “multiple offerings” such as light projections of Bible quotes in foreign languages including Chinese.

kome 5y ago

I am watching the presentation in French... is the "The Telegraph" on drugs? The guy is literally re-organizing the space using theological reasons first and foremost - not touristic considerations. Literally, he is thinking how people can understand catholic faith better by organizing the cathedral spaces in a way that is spiritually more meaningful. Once again: don't trust the media.

Hokusai 5y ago
> is the "The Telegraph" on drugs? It's the Telegraph talking about France. > don't trust the media I am not a billionaire with my own secret service. I need to trust dinner general media. And I trust a lot of the media, but not everyone, and some more in some topics than others. How do you choose who to trust?
- deleted 5y ago
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- deleted 5y ago
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altacc 5y ago
The Telegraph is mainlining drugs which have side effect of thinking that everything was better in the old days and nothing should ever change as change scares the old people. It is a posh, old school conservative tabloid and very flexible on what it considers to be the truth.

olliej 5y ago

I mean it's a fairly simple question right? It's either property of the Catholic Church, and so it's their choice what to do with it, after all it is their money, and they don't receive any financial support or tax breaks from the government. Or it's public property, in which case it's the choice of the public and the Catholic Church has no input.

gambiting 5y ago
I mean, even if it wasn't property of the church it wouldn't be as simple as that. You could ask this question about everything - if a museum receives substantial grants to operate, is it still within the decision of its owner to do with it as they please, or not? If the money was given without any specific restrictions then I'd say yes, it is entirely within their view.
- beardyw 5y ago
  Certainly in the Anglican church if you give a thing (rather than money) it becomes a persistent issue since disposing of it in any way is really difficult. It is not simple ownership as you or I might understand.
markvdb 5y ago
It's trickier than you think from a legal perspective because of the peculiarities of French history.
seszett 5y ago
It's property of the state, and the church doesn't receive financial support or tax breaks, but it's still in charge of maintaining the interior and furniture of the buildings they use. Some of the furniture is property of the state (what dates from before 1905, but now always everything) and some is property of the church. However, this is also a historical monument and the state has to ensure that they are well-maintained (including parts that are privately owned) and not disfigured, and can grant financial support for restorations when needed.

dustintrex 5y ago

Anybody got a better link of what it will look like? The article has only one tiny image and links to a recording of a 30-minute Zoom call: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB_Dm9pN4FQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB_Dm9pN4FQ

altacc 5y ago
> Father Drouin’s proposed interior redesign of Notre Dame will be submitted to France’s national cultural heritage commission on 9 December As is frustratingly common, the media is stirring up opinion based on vague details and assumptions from a 30 minute video call in May. If there was more detail available it would be more difficult to tell people what to think.
TuringTest 5y ago
They start showing images around minute 18: https://youtu.be/uB_Dm9pN4FQ?t=1076 https://youtu.be/uB_Dm9pN4FQ?t=1076

markvdb 5y ago

This place is not just a museum. It is also a place of worship. As long as nothing of historical value is damaged any further than the devastating fire has already managed to damage, it stands to reason for the catholic church to have a large input in the design. The catholic cleric responsible mentions this building with its 800 years of history has always been a living building. I find his argument to make a lot of sense. This also holds from a legal perspective. The building might be owned by the state. That does not mean the state gets to decide all of the restauration. There's a fascinating piece of history to read up on, including the concordat between the catholic church of France and Napoleon [0], and the 1905 law on separation of church and state [1]. Another way to rebuild could be to do what sometimes happens to historical organ rebuilds. Building back to the historical state at a specific point in time could be a very interesting, albeit expensive option. I would very much be interested in seeing Notre Dame's inside painted in very vivid colors like research suggests it might have been during the gothic era. And since everyone and their cat seems to be mentioning their religious affiliation or lack thereof... I say this as a pastafarian. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordat_of_1801 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordat_of_1801 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separation_of_the_Churches_and_the_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separat...

schleck8 5y ago

> “Chinese visitors may not necessarily understand the Nativity,” said the priest. How about building two large parking lots on the Notre Dame square then for Chinese tourist buses to drive directly up to the building. And offer selfie sticks next to the altar. Seriously, what kind of insane logic is this... The church is not a tourism bureau

dragonwriter 5y ago
> The church is not a tourism bureau Yeah, it is. Or, rather, it is, as a central function a propaganda [0] bureau, and leveraging tourism has proven to be a useful and important component of that in the modern world. [0] the modern use of the term, after all, derives ultimately from the former name of the Church body currently known in English as the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, which used to be the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, or in its Latin short form, Propaganda fide.
seszett 5y ago
> what kind of insane logic is this What's the problem with explaining Christian concepts in a Christian building that is visited by many non-Christian visitors? I thought proselytism was a large point of these religions, so it only seems logical to take advantage of this opportunity for explaining their faith to potential new clients.
dagw 5y ago
The church is not a tourism bureau Depends on who you talk to. If you ask the people that own the church building (the French State) then yes, it's all about tourism. If you talk to the capital C Church then it is probably primarily about propaganda (although they probably wouldn't call it that). They don't want Chinese tourists to walk around and come away thinking "wow that was a neat old building" they want the Chinese tourists to come away with a appreciation and interest in Catholicisms that can be a wedge towards conversion. Showing them some relics of western "mysticism" they do not understand is not conducive to that goal. The people who care about if it's a nice space for Sunday Mass are by all accounts the least important people in this equation.

Bayart 5y ago

To clear some confusion : the French state owns the building and the Church is given use of it for cultural, historical and patrimonial considerations (it's just better for a building to keep its original use on-going if you want it to survive as best as possible). In that framework, it's normal for the religious authorities to decide of the interior decoration to the extent it's impermanent. The article makes it sound much worse than it is. The truth is the Church makes stylistic choices that some people (including myself) don't like and they end up making a fuss about it.

eska 5y ago

This makes me think of my visit to castles in Japan. Most of them were destroyed by natural disasters or fire at some point and had to be rebuilt. Some castles were rebuilt in their original style while some were modernized. When I visited the ones rebuilt in the original style I felt like I entered a time machine and the history and culture I had learned about felt very real and near, and I felt motivated to learn more. You look at Osaka castle from the outside and it’s majestic. But once you enter it’s just a f*king museum. You completely forget you’re in a castle. It still pisses me off how one can not only neglect but destroy their heritage like that.