4 ms·

Just to chip in with a very minor annoyance, I hate how google puts up w3schools results above MDN for anything related to JS/HTML.

by shmde 5y ago

bbarn 5y ago
I've seen several developers google "w3schools someDomEvent" because they are conditioned by those search results. Has it accidentally become a halfway useful site?
- valenaut 5y ago
  It's fine for simple things. I referenced it a lot when I was first learning JS and HTML because it was usually at the top of Google results. I think MDN is strictly better.
- 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
  Are you positive the first term wasn't prefixed by a hyphen-minus?
- vlunkr 5y ago
  IMO it is a legitimately useful site, but strictly for beginners, and probably only for html/css. It teaches you the basics and has the sandbox to test things out. It's fine, just not what you want to see when you're looking for actual documentation.
  - myohmy 5y ago
    I used it to learn CSS way back in the day and it still seems to be a good balance between too little and too much for the beginner, so I still send my newbies there. Not surprised it shows higher than the actual spec. I think the HN community is just getting to the greybeard stage (I'm still cutting out grays), and this is our version of JUST READ THE MAN FILE
- kilburn 5y ago
  > Has it accidentally become a halfway useful site? It has. It is nowhere near the quality of MDN, but also nowhere nearly as bad as it used to be. W3Schools has less information than MDN. This is bad for the experienced, but a relief for people who are entering the trade. As an example, consider an inexperienced web developer that wants to do something when a button is clicked. They google for it and find these two pages: - https://www.w3schools.com/jsref/event_onclick.asp https://www.w3schools.com/jsref/event_onclick.asp . Right there in the middle of the page is an example snippet that will get the job done. If I scroll down I see other ways to do it, all of them fully contained (i.e.: I can copy-paste it to some website and they will work). - https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/click_event https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/cli... . There's a table of things I don't understand (Bubbles? Cancellable?), two lengthy discussions about weird edge cases in some browsers, and (finally!) a single not-so-simple example that is not even enclosed in <script> tags. What website do you think they'll pick?
- blahyawnblah 5y ago
  I do the same, but with "mdn" instead of "w3schools"
projproj 5y ago
Check out tomdn.com. I created it to make it easier to get to MDN. E.g., instead of googling array.map, just type tomdn.com?array.map. It will take you straight to MDN docs on Array.prototype.map. Other things work as well, like tomdn.com?object.keys, tomdn.com?css.color, tomdn.com?htmlel.button, etc. If there is a pattern it doesn't recognize, you end up on the MDN search results page. edit: More info. about how it works is available here: https://github.com/tayler/tomdn https://github.com/tayler/tomdn
- hnarn 5y ago
  What value does this provide over simply Googling or DDG'ing "array.map mdn"? It's shorter and the first result for me is (unsurprisingly) MDN on both, and I don't have to run my searches through an unknown third party. DDG also has !bangs for this specific purpose and !mdn does, as expected, lead you to MDN.
  - projproj 5y ago
    Valid questions. I just think it's faster. One action on tomdn.com instead of 1. DDG "array.map mdn", 2. Find MDN result (usually first), 3. Click result, 4. See docs. Bangs are great, just shorter again to use tomdn.com: - `!mdn array.map` leads me to https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/search?q=array.map https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/search?q=array.map, which I have to scan the results and click on. - tomdn.com?array.map leads me to the exact page in the docs. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Javascript/Reference/Global_Objects/array/map https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Javascript/Refe... This may or may not be valuable, but I like saving the extra steps for something I do many times a week. Basically this calculation (https://xkcd.com/1205/ https://xkcd.com/1205/) works out for me + the fun of working on a new project. edit: >I don't have to run my searches through an unknown third party Very sympathetic to this concern. Feel free to host yourself -- it's a single html file. https://github.com/tayler/tomdn https://github.com/tayler/tomdn
    - striking 5y ago
      `! mdn array.map` takes you right to MDN
a_e_k 5y ago
Hell, yesterday I searched for `python string split`. Stupid w3schools was the first hit. The official library reference documentation on python.org (which was what I was looking for) didn't turn up until nearly the bottom of the 2nd page of search results!! Beyond frustrating.
- aaron695 5y ago
  w3schools is better than python.org in your example. So that issue needs to be addressed first. I don't give a fuck about what library it's in blah blah a massive text wall. I want a quick example at the top. Most of the time Fini. Then more info about arguments, with quick examples. Then more deeper info. Fuck documentation as it stands in the IT world. Also set your Google results to 100. What's the chances what you want will be in the top 10? Sure you are not a unique snowflake, but you should be better than the top 10 some of the time if you have any sort of expertise.
Kiro 5y ago
I prefer W3Schools to MDN.

Just to chip in with a very minor annoyance, I hate how google puts up w3schools results above MDN for anything related to JS/HTML.

by shmde 5y ago

Just to chip in with a very minor annoyance, I hate how google puts up w3schools results above MDN for anything related to JS/HTML.

bbarn 5y ago

I've seen several developers google "w3schools someDomEvent" because they are conditioned by those search results. Has it accidentally become a halfway useful site?

valenaut 5y ago
It's fine for simple things. I referenced it a lot when I was first learning JS and HTML because it was usually at the top of Google results. I think MDN is strictly better.
5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
Are you positive the first term wasn't prefixed by a hyphen-minus?
vlunkr 5y ago
IMO it is a legitimately useful site, but strictly for beginners, and probably only for html/css. It teaches you the basics and has the sandbox to test things out. It's fine, just not what you want to see when you're looking for actual documentation.
- myohmy 5y ago
  I used it to learn CSS way back in the day and it still seems to be a good balance between too little and too much for the beginner, so I still send my newbies there. Not surprised it shows higher than the actual spec. I think the HN community is just getting to the greybeard stage (I'm still cutting out grays), and this is our version of JUST READ THE MAN FILE
kilburn 5y ago
> Has it accidentally become a halfway useful site? It has. It is nowhere near the quality of MDN, but also nowhere nearly as bad as it used to be. W3Schools has less information than MDN. This is bad for the experienced, but a relief for people who are entering the trade. As an example, consider an inexperienced web developer that wants to do something when a button is clicked. They google for it and find these two pages: - https://www.w3schools.com/jsref/event_onclick.asp https://www.w3schools.com/jsref/event_onclick.asp . Right there in the middle of the page is an example snippet that will get the job done. If I scroll down I see other ways to do it, all of them fully contained (i.e.: I can copy-paste it to some website and they will work). - https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/click_event https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/cli... . There's a table of things I don't understand (Bubbles? Cancellable?), two lengthy discussions about weird edge cases in some browsers, and (finally!) a single not-so-simple example that is not even enclosed in <script> tags. What website do you think they'll pick?
blahyawnblah 5y ago
I do the same, but with "mdn" instead of "w3schools"

projproj 5y ago

Check out tomdn.com. I created it to make it easier to get to MDN. E.g., instead of googling array.map, just type tomdn.com?array.map. It will take you straight to MDN docs on Array.prototype.map. Other things work as well, like tomdn.com?object.keys, tomdn.com?css.color, tomdn.com?htmlel.button, etc. If there is a pattern it doesn't recognize, you end up on the MDN search results page. edit: More info. about how it works is available here: https://github.com/tayler/tomdn https://github.com/tayler/tomdn

hnarn 5y ago
What value does this provide over simply Googling or DDG'ing "array.map mdn"? It's shorter and the first result for me is (unsurprisingly) MDN on both, and I don't have to run my searches through an unknown third party. DDG also has !bangs for this specific purpose and !mdn does, as expected, lead you to MDN.
- projproj 5y ago
  Valid questions. I just think it's faster. One action on tomdn.com instead of 1. DDG "array.map mdn", 2. Find MDN result (usually first), 3. Click result, 4. See docs. Bangs are great, just shorter again to use tomdn.com: - `!mdn array.map` leads me to https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/search?q=array.map https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/search?q=array.map, which I have to scan the results and click on. - tomdn.com?array.map leads me to the exact page in the docs. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Javascript/Reference/Global_Objects/array/map https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Javascript/Refe... This may or may not be valuable, but I like saving the extra steps for something I do many times a week. Basically this calculation (https://xkcd.com/1205/ https://xkcd.com/1205/) works out for me + the fun of working on a new project. edit: >I don't have to run my searches through an unknown third party Very sympathetic to this concern. Feel free to host yourself -- it's a single html file. https://github.com/tayler/tomdn https://github.com/tayler/tomdn
  - striking 5y ago
    `! mdn array.map` takes you right to MDN

a_e_k 5y ago

Hell, yesterday I searched for `python string split`. Stupid w3schools was the first hit. The official library reference documentation on python.org (which was what I was looking for) didn't turn up until nearly the bottom of the 2nd page of search results!! Beyond frustrating.

aaron695 5y ago
w3schools is better than python.org in your example. So that issue needs to be addressed first. I don't give a fuck about what library it's in blah blah a massive text wall. I want a quick example at the top. Most of the time Fini. Then more info about arguments, with quick examples. Then more deeper info. Fuck documentation as it stands in the IT world. Also set your Google results to 100. What's the chances what you want will be in the top 10? Sure you are not a unique snowflake, but you should be better than the top 10 some of the time if you have any sort of expertise.

Kiro 5y ago

I prefer W3Schools to MDN.