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>I personally believe that the government should focus on a shorter workweek rather than minimum wage increases in the near term. The government being involved

>I personally believe that the government should focus on a shorter workweek rather than minimum wage increases in the near term. The government being involved is the most likely answer as to why a 40 hour work week is standard and why there are so many "minimum wage" jobs. A funny thing happens when you set floors or ceilings in markets, you hit them. There should be no minimum wage. People excepting jobs will set the minimum wage because people act in their own self interest. If the pay is too low, no one will take the job. This is how labor markets are set everywhere else in the economy, I don't understand how the bottom is different. The government shouldn't have anything to do with the work week, the market should decide because what works in one sector in one region may not work in another. The government isn't as smart as the entire labor market making decisions for themselves.

jedberg 5y ago
In an ideal spherical cow world, having no minimum wage would work exactly as you describe. In the real world, that's you how get slavery. For many reasons, not everyone has a choice to turn down a $1/hr job.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Where I am McDonalds is begging for people to work at $15/hr. How would they even think about paying less?
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    They'd simply cut wages when the labor supply shock recedes and labor is in surplus again. Businesses do not pay the minimum wage out of the goodness of their hearts; on the contrary, it communicates "we'd pay you less if we could, the law simply doesn't allow us to."
    - mlyle 5y ago
      Sure. But note also that there are people one might be willing to gamble on employing at $12/hour but that don't offer a positive return at capital at $15/hour. I think minimum wage laws are important, but that reducing the supply of labor will do more to push up the wages of the lowest earners.
      - medvezhenok 5y ago
        Then pass UBI instead and drop the minimum wage laws (there's no need for them if UBI were a thing). Problem solved. Right now the problem is in the power dynamic between companies and employees - the dynamic is very unbalanced in the companies favor. In "Bullshit Jobs" Graeber compares the current system to a Dom-Sub relationship with no safeword for the "fake-competitive" industries that are not unionized. UBI is the safeword.
  - midasuni 5y ago
    Why aren’t they offering $20 an hour?
- trcarney 5y ago
  I don't understand how people hold your view. Would you except a $1/hr job? No, then why do you think other people would. If you can make more money walking through a parking lot picking up change, why would you work. Plus companies wouldn't want to hire at $1/hr because what kind of employee are you getting? Your competitor down the street paying more money would then get the better employees and drive you out of business. This would then lead to wages going up as companies compete for employees. This is not some ideal spherical cow world, this is how literally the entire labor market works except for the mystical bottom that the government feels they have to be involved in. Why else do you think FAANG's pay so much money? Its because they want to attract the best talent.
  - skeeter2020 5y ago
    We're actually seeing this with massive labour shortages in traditionally low paying fields. People did better off government hand-outs and then didn't ever go back to these roles at the offered wages.
  - DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago
    > Its because they want to attract the best talent. When we are talking about minimum wage, you need to consider the people with the worst talent. Think sweatshops in China, construction camps in Dubai, prostitutes in the US. Not Google or Facebook employees.
    - trcarney 5y ago
      Yes but you want the best of your labor pool. As for sweatshops in China, these are the growing pains of a developing economy. The work conditions there suck but I bet they are better than being bent over in a rice field all day. You are also rapidly seeing this change as the economy becomes more developed there, even in the face of an oppressive government. https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-is-working-its-way-up-from-sweatshops-to-skilled-jobs-11575464404 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-is-working-its-way-up-fro... The construction camps in Dubai is about government corruption. They lure in overseas workers then take away their passports so they can't leave. Not exactly a free labor market. Again prostitution in the US is not a free labor market because of government interference. If you go to places where prostitution is legal, the girls there make pretty good money. Most of the areas where you can point to the worst employment situations is because of government interference in a market place.
anonAndOn 5y ago
> There should be no minimum wage. Spoken like a true capitalist! The young, dumb and disadvantaged should be thankful for the pennies that trickle their way. It's not like they're gonna sue if they get ripped off, they're broke. Besides, they can always move into high paying career ladders just as soon as they can afford to stop taking the bus everywhere. /s
- tick_tock_tick 5y ago
  Yeah horrible idea to copy countries like Denmark and Norway.
- trcarney 5y ago
  You will be paid at the highest rate you can command based on the value of your skills in the labor force. If you have no relevant skills, you don't make much money until you do have relevant skills. You earn shit money and then build your skills and then you will no longer earn shit money. It's pretty simple and it is what happens to most minimum wage workers and workers in any sector of the economy.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    How do you build your skills, if you're spending 40+ hours a week working to make ends meet and trying to care for a family? You're arguing from an ideal situation, without taking into account that reality's average is very much less than ideal.
    - trcarney 5y ago
      You are building your skills while you are working. If you can find time outside of work, you are just accelerating things.
      - kwhitefoot 5y ago
        > You are building your skills while you are working What skills would they be? Surely the only skill you build while flipping burgers is that of flipping burgers. Is it applicable to any other job?
DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago
> There should be no minimum wage. People excepting jobs will set the minimum wage because people act in their own self interest.' I'm very capitalistic and libertarian, but reality is all systems need to manage edge cases. Minimum wage is a part of that. To believe that the market can figure everything out requires serious tunnel vision.
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  > Minimum wage is a part of that. It's not the only way though. We have no legally defined or mandated minimum wage here in Norway (nor elsewhere in the Nordic region I think). But the effective minimum is probably higher than the mandated minimum in any other country. Broadly speaking the way it is done here is that the national association of employers and the principal unions negotiate a tariff for each industry and type of work each year. The state is involved to the extent that it provides an official who acts as referee in the negotiations and tries to chivvy the parties to an agreement. Employers are free to ignore the rules but risk losing employees to companies that pay according to the tariff. Of course the difference between here and the US is that solidarity is stronger here so the negotiations are less hostile here. It's not perfect but it seems to work quite well
  - DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago
    Sure, not the only way. But unions are an example of circuit breaker for when a pure capitalistic system fails. Some countries extend the union to all citizens in all industries as a minimum wage. The nordic region (including gov't) seems to have their shit together, more than the rest of the world. I think less gov't is better, just not the anarchy the previous poster suggests.

jedberg 5y ago

In an ideal spherical cow world, having no minimum wage would work exactly as you describe. In the real world, that's you how get slavery. For many reasons, not everyone has a choice to turn down a $1/hr job.

throwawayboise 5y ago
Where I am McDonalds is begging for people to work at $15/hr. How would they even think about paying less?
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  They'd simply cut wages when the labor supply shock recedes and labor is in surplus again. Businesses do not pay the minimum wage out of the goodness of their hearts; on the contrary, it communicates "we'd pay you less if we could, the law simply doesn't allow us to."
  - mlyle 5y ago
    Sure. But note also that there are people one might be willing to gamble on employing at $12/hour but that don't offer a positive return at capital at $15/hour. I think minimum wage laws are important, but that reducing the supply of labor will do more to push up the wages of the lowest earners.
    - medvezhenok 5y ago
      Then pass UBI instead and drop the minimum wage laws (there's no need for them if UBI were a thing). Problem solved. Right now the problem is in the power dynamic between companies and employees - the dynamic is very unbalanced in the companies favor. In "Bullshit Jobs" Graeber compares the current system to a Dom-Sub relationship with no safeword for the "fake-competitive" industries that are not unionized. UBI is the safeword.
- midasuni 5y ago
  Why aren’t they offering $20 an hour?
trcarney 5y ago
I don't understand how people hold your view. Would you except a $1/hr job? No, then why do you think other people would. If you can make more money walking through a parking lot picking up change, why would you work. Plus companies wouldn't want to hire at $1/hr because what kind of employee are you getting? Your competitor down the street paying more money would then get the better employees and drive you out of business. This would then lead to wages going up as companies compete for employees. This is not some ideal spherical cow world, this is how literally the entire labor market works except for the mystical bottom that the government feels they have to be involved in. Why else do you think FAANG's pay so much money? Its because they want to attract the best talent.
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  We're actually seeing this with massive labour shortages in traditionally low paying fields. People did better off government hand-outs and then didn't ever go back to these roles at the offered wages.
- DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago
  > Its because they want to attract the best talent. When we are talking about minimum wage, you need to consider the people with the worst talent. Think sweatshops in China, construction camps in Dubai, prostitutes in the US. Not Google or Facebook employees.
  - trcarney 5y ago
    Yes but you want the best of your labor pool. As for sweatshops in China, these are the growing pains of a developing economy. The work conditions there suck but I bet they are better than being bent over in a rice field all day. You are also rapidly seeing this change as the economy becomes more developed there, even in the face of an oppressive government. https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-is-working-its-way-up-from-sweatshops-to-skilled-jobs-11575464404 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-is-working-its-way-up-fro... The construction camps in Dubai is about government corruption. They lure in overseas workers then take away their passports so they can't leave. Not exactly a free labor market. Again prostitution in the US is not a free labor market because of government interference. If you go to places where prostitution is legal, the girls there make pretty good money. Most of the areas where you can point to the worst employment situations is because of government interference in a market place.

anonAndOn 5y ago

> There should be no minimum wage. Spoken like a true capitalist! The young, dumb and disadvantaged should be thankful for the pennies that trickle their way. It's not like they're gonna sue if they get ripped off, they're broke. Besides, they can always move into high paying career ladders just as soon as they can afford to stop taking the bus everywhere. /s

tick_tock_tick 5y ago
Yeah horrible idea to copy countries like Denmark and Norway.
trcarney 5y ago
You will be paid at the highest rate you can command based on the value of your skills in the labor force. If you have no relevant skills, you don't make much money until you do have relevant skills. You earn shit money and then build your skills and then you will no longer earn shit money. It's pretty simple and it is what happens to most minimum wage workers and workers in any sector of the economy.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  How do you build your skills, if you're spending 40+ hours a week working to make ends meet and trying to care for a family? You're arguing from an ideal situation, without taking into account that reality's average is very much less than ideal.
  - trcarney 5y ago
    You are building your skills while you are working. If you can find time outside of work, you are just accelerating things.
    - kwhitefoot 5y ago
      > You are building your skills while you are working What skills would they be? Surely the only skill you build while flipping burgers is that of flipping burgers. Is it applicable to any other job?

DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago

> There should be no minimum wage. People excepting jobs will set the minimum wage because people act in their own self interest.' I'm very capitalistic and libertarian, but reality is all systems need to manage edge cases. Minimum wage is a part of that. To believe that the market can figure everything out requires serious tunnel vision.

kwhitefoot 5y ago
> Minimum wage is a part of that. It's not the only way though. We have no legally defined or mandated minimum wage here in Norway (nor elsewhere in the Nordic region I think). But the effective minimum is probably higher than the mandated minimum in any other country. Broadly speaking the way it is done here is that the national association of employers and the principal unions negotiate a tariff for each industry and type of work each year. The state is involved to the extent that it provides an official who acts as referee in the negotiations and tries to chivvy the parties to an agreement. Employers are free to ignore the rules but risk losing employees to companies that pay according to the tariff. Of course the difference between here and the US is that solidarity is stronger here so the negotiations are less hostile here. It's not perfect but it seems to work quite well
- DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago
  Sure, not the only way. But unions are an example of circuit breaker for when a pure capitalistic system fails. Some countries extend the union to all citizens in all industries as a minimum wage. The nordic region (including gov't) seems to have their shit together, more than the rest of the world. I think less gov't is better, just not the anarchy the previous poster suggests.