5 ms·

As far as I am aware this approach is basically universal. It's impractical to check references before the offer stage, since the majority of candidates will no

As far as I am aware this approach is basically universal. It's impractical to check references before the offer stage, since the majority of candidates will not want their existing employer to be contacted for a reference until they have accepted the offer.

MAGZine 5y ago
I have the opposite experience: reference calls are done BEFORE giving an offer, so you don't have to undo the offer or put yourself in an awkward situation like stripe has done. Yes, you should be careful about which references you use, and if you're going to use current colleagues/managers, to let them know you're searching ahead of time (normally you should ask before selecting someone anyhow--so it shouldn't be a surprise).
whimsicalism 5y ago
Who even collects references nowadays?
- aliswe 5y ago
  In swedish we call them "consultant brokers", like the huge company eWork, require two references to receive your application. Well they did when I was active with them, more than 10 years ago. Which was very frustrating, as I needed to check with my references before sending, and often they were never contacted.
- throwaway19937 5y ago
  I interviewed at Tableau a few years ago; they collected and called my references.
quelltext 5y ago
> the majority of candidates will not want their existing employer to be contacted for a reference until they have accepted the offer. That's even more of an issue, no? You accept the offer but don't yet resign (as others have said one should) until final confirmation, they tell your employer that you are joining, then rescind the offer, and now what?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
MattGaiser 5y ago
Which is why no employer has ever checked my current company. They check with my past managers.
playpause 5y ago
Then the offer should be "pending reference checks" so the candidate knows it's not a final offer yet.
- vanusa 5y ago
  Exactly. But for some reason this extremely obvious (and universally applied) fix the the problem never occurred to to hiring folks at Stripe. Or it did occur to them, but they cynically chose against it. To make things, you know, "faster".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
vanusa 5y ago
As far as I am aware this approach is basically universal. It is definitely not universal practice to offer candidates, as Stripe did, "contingent" job offers while presenting them as "final" offers.
- matthewmacleod 5y ago
  I have literally no insight into the actual text used by Stripe for offers, so I can't say if they misrepresent their nature or not. The point was just a general one – that in most cases, I would expect an offer to be contingent on references and for those references not to be contacted until I'd accepted the offer. The expectations around this could, of course, vary from region to region.
  - vanusa 5y ago
    I have literally no insight into the actual text used by Stripe for offers, so I can't say if they misrepresent their nature or not. I think we can safely assume the candidates interviewed for the article were reasonably intelligent, and would not have missed language in the offer letter indicating that it was "contingent" and subject to due diligence still in progress.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    > in most cases, I would expect an offer to be contingent on references You work in tech in the Bay Area and this is your expectation? It's certainly not mine - I don't expect them to call anyone at my current employer and would be annoyed if they did.
    - matthewmacleod 5y ago
      You work in tech in the Bay Area I absolutely do not – I work in tech in the UK. That's why I added the proviso that expectations might vary regionally. However, if I were to explicitly provide a contact at my current employer as a reference (which seems to be broadly standard practice in this country) then I'd expect them to be contacted.
mrkstu 5y ago
Why would a current company need to be a reference? The fact of your continuing employment should be sufficient. I never use my current employer as a reference and never give notice till the background check fully clears.
justin66 5y ago
> As far as I am aware this approach is basically universal. You are poorly informed. > It's impractical to check references before the offer stage, There's a useful distinction here between a verbal, paperwork-pending sort of offer and a written offer, although seriously, contacting references is not that big a deal. You're talking about a few phone calls. An applicant has every right to assume you've done all the relevant work before extending a written offer, unless you inform them otherwise. > since the majority of candidates will not want their existing employer to be contacted for a reference until they have accepted the offer. The majority of candidates are smart enough not to use individuals at their existing employer as references without talking to them about it first. It would be extraordinary for a company to contact someone at the current employer of a potential hire willy-nilly, without permission, as it could put them in an actionable position. Everyone understands the issues involved. Perhaps you're confusing a reference check with a date of employment check. No HR department is going to hold it against an employee if someone calls them asking to verify that employee's date of employment. It's a procedure that's used for a lot of things, not just hiring.
- matthewmacleod 5y ago
  You are poorly informed. I think it's maybe rather that these processes and expectations can be quite different in different places, and naturally my views are based on my own experiences rather than my position as a single infallible global oracle :) It certainly seems like cultural expectations of what constitutes an "offer" or a "reference" in the US is somewhat different from what I understand in the UK.
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    Maybe don't use words like basically universal then.

MAGZine 5y ago

I have the opposite experience: reference calls are done BEFORE giving an offer, so you don't have to undo the offer or put yourself in an awkward situation like stripe has done. Yes, you should be careful about which references you use, and if you're going to use current colleagues/managers, to let them know you're searching ahead of time (normally you should ask before selecting someone anyhow--so it shouldn't be a surprise).

whimsicalism 5y ago

Who even collects references nowadays?

aliswe 5y ago
In swedish we call them "consultant brokers", like the huge company eWork, require two references to receive your application. Well they did when I was active with them, more than 10 years ago. Which was very frustrating, as I needed to check with my references before sending, and often they were never contacted.
throwaway19937 5y ago
I interviewed at Tableau a few years ago; they collected and called my references.

quelltext 5y ago

> the majority of candidates will not want their existing employer to be contacted for a reference until they have accepted the offer. That's even more of an issue, no? You accept the offer but don't yet resign (as others have said one should) until final confirmation, they tell your employer that you are joining, then rescind the offer, and now what?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

MattGaiser 5y ago

Which is why no employer has ever checked my current company. They check with my past managers.

playpause 5y ago

Then the offer should be "pending reference checks" so the candidate knows it's not a final offer yet.

vanusa 5y ago
Exactly. But for some reason this extremely obvious (and universally applied) fix the the problem never occurred to to hiring folks at Stripe. Or it did occur to them, but they cynically chose against it. To make things, you know, "faster".

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

vanusa 5y ago

As far as I am aware this approach is basically universal. It is definitely not universal practice to offer candidates, as Stripe did, "contingent" job offers while presenting them as "final" offers.

matthewmacleod 5y ago
I have literally no insight into the actual text used by Stripe for offers, so I can't say if they misrepresent their nature or not. The point was just a general one – that in most cases, I would expect an offer to be contingent on references and for those references not to be contacted until I'd accepted the offer. The expectations around this could, of course, vary from region to region.
- vanusa 5y ago
  I have literally no insight into the actual text used by Stripe for offers, so I can't say if they misrepresent their nature or not. I think we can safely assume the candidates interviewed for the article were reasonably intelligent, and would not have missed language in the offer letter indicating that it was "contingent" and subject to due diligence still in progress.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  > in most cases, I would expect an offer to be contingent on references You work in tech in the Bay Area and this is your expectation? It's certainly not mine - I don't expect them to call anyone at my current employer and would be annoyed if they did.
  - matthewmacleod 5y ago
    You work in tech in the Bay Area I absolutely do not – I work in tech in the UK. That's why I added the proviso that expectations might vary regionally. However, if I were to explicitly provide a contact at my current employer as a reference (which seems to be broadly standard practice in this country) then I'd expect them to be contacted.

mrkstu 5y ago

Why would a current company need to be a reference? The fact of your continuing employment should be sufficient. I never use my current employer as a reference and never give notice till the background check fully clears.

justin66 5y ago

> As far as I am aware this approach is basically universal. You are poorly informed. > It's impractical to check references before the offer stage, There's a useful distinction here between a verbal, paperwork-pending sort of offer and a written offer, although seriously, contacting references is not that big a deal. You're talking about a few phone calls. An applicant has every right to assume you've done all the relevant work before extending a written offer, unless you inform them otherwise. > since the majority of candidates will not want their existing employer to be contacted for a reference until they have accepted the offer. The majority of candidates are smart enough not to use individuals at their existing employer as references without talking to them about it first. It would be extraordinary for a company to contact someone at the current employer of a potential hire willy-nilly, without permission, as it could put them in an actionable position. Everyone understands the issues involved. Perhaps you're confusing a reference check with a date of employment check. No HR department is going to hold it against an employee if someone calls them asking to verify that employee's date of employment. It's a procedure that's used for a lot of things, not just hiring.

matthewmacleod 5y ago
You are poorly informed. I think it's maybe rather that these processes and expectations can be quite different in different places, and naturally my views are based on my own experiences rather than my position as a single infallible global oracle :) It certainly seems like cultural expectations of what constitutes an "offer" or a "reference" in the US is somewhat different from what I understand in the UK.
- pseudalopex 5y ago
  Maybe don't use words like basically universal then.