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Unpopular opinion but here we go: Engineering and tech compensation packages are increasing extremely quickly. Engineers in particular have market power to get

Unpopular opinion but here we go: Engineering and tech compensation packages are increasing extremely quickly. Engineers in particular have market power to get great jobs with high pay. In an environment where the rate companies pay for labor is increasing, we're going to see more companies do things like rescind offers for shifting business priorities (or something wild a candidate said after offer acceptance, which has happened to me) or fire people after a few weeks at the company for non performance/poor match because the cost of maintaining an employee on payroll has increased and the consequences to that individual have decreased. At a high level broadly speaking the consequences to the employees are decreasing over time (its easier to change jobs), the consequences to the company are increasing over time (compensation is increasing). As an individual, you are directionally incentivized to behave more like a free agent/mercenary than you were 4 years ago, and its only going further in that direction. Just move forward and live in that future, its a good place for all of us, just realize that that is where we are now and behave accordingly. Most companies won't _really_ care if you sign and then rescind your acceptance if you get a better offer. It won't destroy your career it will likely be good for it.

valar_m 5y ago
Why would rising pay for engineers make companies want to increase turnover? > Most companies won't _really_ care if you sign and then rescind your acceptance if you get a better offer. What? Of course they care - finding good candidates is an expensive, labor intensive process.
- 0xB31B1B 5y ago
  It's a transactional relationship. I have had a few candidates pull out after signing for various reasons (some personal issues, some for better offers). If they apply a year later, I would likely still give them an offer. There are no "permanent black marks" on you, at worst it is a note in your candidate CRM in one specific company that won't follow you elsewhere and won't impact you at that company after 12 months.
phkahler 5y ago
>> we're going to see more companies do things like rescind offers for shifting business priorities No. If "business priorities" are shifting that much between a candidates offer and start date, that company has serious problems. Also, most people in tech can be repurposed to some extent so a change in priorities doesn't mean changing staff or canceling a new hire.
- 0xB31B1B 5y ago
  I'm not saying this is a super common thing, but I am saying this is going to happen more than it used to happen. We routinely see people who want start dates 3 months after offer acceptance, they want to travel, take time off, spend time doing hobbies. Its great! Maybe 1 in 20 times the team that person was accepted to ceases to exist in that 3 month period, and the company doesn't want to or can't rematch them to another team because the job literally doesn't exist, their skillsets aren't needed, maybe the hiring manager responsible for the hire left and there is no one who is the "champion" of the new employee/prospective hire. The reality is your job doesn't exist for you and has no legal protections until you sign your onboarding docs on your first day, and even then its at will employment.
WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
Okay, here's a mercenary approach for you. First, you and I sign a binding contract, notarized if need be, that if you make me an offer, and I accept it, and then you rescind it, you immediately pay me an amount equivalent to a year's worth of working for you. Better yet, you put the money in escrow and only get it back when either the job interview goes south, or I refuse your offer, or you make an offer and I do in fact get the job contract.
enumjorge 5y ago
This is not something we should normalize. Interviewing at tech companies is already terrible, and asking people to do it more frequently is not something we should encourage. I also don’t follow the conclusion that because tech jobs pay well we should be ok with unprofessional behavior from employers.
- 0xB31B1B 5y ago
  I'm not saying we should normalize it, I'm saying in a world where senior engineering talent is routinely paid 400k+ USD comp packages is a world in which employers will be extremely picky about who they give those 400k comp packages to, and if the business use case doesn't shake out in the small time between offer acceptance and joining the team then naturally these businesses will pull out more frequently than they used to pull out. I'm not saying its good, I'm saying its a consequence of very high pay for engineers.
confidantlake 5y ago
Rescinding offers is about the worst thing you can do in a hot talent market because it hurts your reputation. I have already moved them from my top tier list to meh and I am sure some others feel the same.
CRConrad 5y ago
> Most companies won't _really_ care if you sign and then... Sign what? This thread has been full of "most jobs in the USA don't come with any employment contract at all", so what is that you're signing?
- 0xB31B1B 5y ago
  You sign an offer letter, not a contract. Its basically a promise that if you show up on a given date that your employer will give you the necessary documents to sign to start employment, and what the terms of employment would look like. There is no legal protection for candidates who have had offers rescinded. Employment in the US is 'at will'. You can leave with zero days notice, your employer can fire you with zero days notice.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > ...if you show up on a given date that your employer will give you the necessary documents to sign to start employment, and what the terms of employment would look like. So what are those "documents", then, if not what in most languages would be called "a contract"?
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Also, BTW: > You sign an offer letter, not a contract. A letter is something that is signed by the sender, not the recipient. The sender here is presumably the (prospective) employer, not the employee (to be). So if (the editorial) "you" also sign(s) it, it isn't really a "letter" AFAICS. [Edit:] The common-language, and I'd assume in most jurisdictions also the legal, understanding of what "a contract" means is something like "a document signed by two parties wherein they both commit to certain obligations vis-a-vis each other". So all in all, I'm getting the feeling that this "letter" actually, legally, is some kind of contract; only employers don't want employees to realise that, so they call it "a letter". /[Edit]

valar_m 5y ago

Why would rising pay for engineers make companies want to increase turnover? > Most companies won't _really_ care if you sign and then rescind your acceptance if you get a better offer. What? Of course they care - finding good candidates is an expensive, labor intensive process.

0xB31B1B 5y ago
It's a transactional relationship. I have had a few candidates pull out after signing for various reasons (some personal issues, some for better offers). If they apply a year later, I would likely still give them an offer. There are no "permanent black marks" on you, at worst it is a note in your candidate CRM in one specific company that won't follow you elsewhere and won't impact you at that company after 12 months.

phkahler 5y ago

>> we're going to see more companies do things like rescind offers for shifting business priorities No. If "business priorities" are shifting that much between a candidates offer and start date, that company has serious problems. Also, most people in tech can be repurposed to some extent so a change in priorities doesn't mean changing staff or canceling a new hire.

0xB31B1B 5y ago
I'm not saying this is a super common thing, but I am saying this is going to happen more than it used to happen. We routinely see people who want start dates 3 months after offer acceptance, they want to travel, take time off, spend time doing hobbies. Its great! Maybe 1 in 20 times the team that person was accepted to ceases to exist in that 3 month period, and the company doesn't want to or can't rematch them to another team because the job literally doesn't exist, their skillsets aren't needed, maybe the hiring manager responsible for the hire left and there is no one who is the "champion" of the new employee/prospective hire. The reality is your job doesn't exist for you and has no legal protections until you sign your onboarding docs on your first day, and even then its at will employment.

WesolyKubeczek 5y ago

Okay, here's a mercenary approach for you. First, you and I sign a binding contract, notarized if need be, that if you make me an offer, and I accept it, and then you rescind it, you immediately pay me an amount equivalent to a year's worth of working for you. Better yet, you put the money in escrow and only get it back when either the job interview goes south, or I refuse your offer, or you make an offer and I do in fact get the job contract.

enumjorge 5y ago

This is not something we should normalize. Interviewing at tech companies is already terrible, and asking people to do it more frequently is not something we should encourage. I also don’t follow the conclusion that because tech jobs pay well we should be ok with unprofessional behavior from employers.

0xB31B1B 5y ago
I'm not saying we should normalize it, I'm saying in a world where senior engineering talent is routinely paid 400k+ USD comp packages is a world in which employers will be extremely picky about who they give those 400k comp packages to, and if the business use case doesn't shake out in the small time between offer acceptance and joining the team then naturally these businesses will pull out more frequently than they used to pull out. I'm not saying its good, I'm saying its a consequence of very high pay for engineers.

confidantlake 5y ago

Rescinding offers is about the worst thing you can do in a hot talent market because it hurts your reputation. I have already moved them from my top tier list to meh and I am sure some others feel the same.

CRConrad 5y ago

> Most companies won't _really_ care if you sign and then... Sign what? This thread has been full of "most jobs in the USA don't come with any employment contract at all", so what is that you're signing?

0xB31B1B 5y ago
You sign an offer letter, not a contract. Its basically a promise that if you show up on a given date that your employer will give you the necessary documents to sign to start employment, and what the terms of employment would look like. There is no legal protection for candidates who have had offers rescinded. Employment in the US is 'at will'. You can leave with zero days notice, your employer can fire you with zero days notice.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > ...if you show up on a given date that your employer will give you the necessary documents to sign to start employment, and what the terms of employment would look like. So what are those "documents", then, if not what in most languages would be called "a contract"?
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Also, BTW: > You sign an offer letter, not a contract. A letter is something that is signed by the sender, not the recipient. The sender here is presumably the (prospective) employer, not the employee (to be). So if (the editorial) "you" also sign(s) it, it isn't really a "letter" AFAICS. [Edit:] The common-language, and I'd assume in most jurisdictions also the legal, understanding of what "a contract" means is something like "a document signed by two parties wherein they both commit to certain obligations vis-a-vis each other". So all in all, I'm getting the feeling that this "letter" actually, legally, is some kind of contract; only employers don't want employees to realise that, so they call it "a letter". /[Edit]