4 ms·

> This happens when there is a glut of qualified candidates relative to demand - as there is for junior devs. But, the process doesn't materially change when c

> This happens when there is a glut of qualified candidates relative to demand - as there is for junior devs. But, the process doesn't materially change when companies are looking for senior or mid-level developers, except that they then start adding system design rounds. Incidentally, I just had a thought: if there really is a glut of junior developers relative to demand, shouldn't that push down wages? It seems like there's some sort of market failure at work, but I'm not quite sure exactly what's causing it.

pydry 5y ago
I doubt a senior developer would be shocked at being invited in for an interview after a phone call.
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  Okay, so you get to skip a phone screen or two before being invited to the hazing party. Big deal? That's what the word "materially" was there for.
  - drran 5y ago
    A’s Hire A’s, B’s Hire C’s. If you're really a senior developer, will you enjoy to work with C's? Try to actively «fire» the interviewer at the first minutes of interview by showing the darkest points of your CV upfront. If you succeed, you will save 6 hours of hazing and a few months of your life after that. I was in a team with inexperienced PM and few crooks, which negotiated 2x salary over mine, but had no skills. They hated programming, actually. I tried to help, but PM fired me instead. The project collapsed, so they started to blame me, damaging my reputation. It was an awful experience. For me, it's easy to recognize the technical level of somebody else, because I will just ask a high-level question and then see how the discussion goes. If they say «Okey, now tell me about your experience», then they are definitely not A's.
    - 908B64B197 5y ago
      > but PM fired me instead. Having PM manage devs is a red flag. PM and Devs should be in two different, parallels orgs.
    - actually_a_dog 5y ago
      Did you mean to post this in reply to someone else? I don't have any idea how you think this relates to anything I've said.
      - goohle 5y ago
        It looks like drran had a few bad interviews or a bad job recently, so he's trying to fix the world.
    - goohle 5y ago
      You cannot bullshit A's, so bringing your weak points to the table upfront will give you some credibility in the eyes of A's, but it will do the opposite in the eyes of B's. It's detailed in "Getting naked"[0]. If you are doing consultation and want satisfied clients only, or looking for an A level job only, then it's OK. If you are looking for any job (with high salary, of course), then it better to hide your weak points, to be accepted by a B, and then do the dull work. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Naked-Business-Shedding-Sabotage/dp/0787976393 https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Naked-Business-Shedding-Sabot...
      - pc86 5y ago
        I'm sorry to veer off topic but is anyone else infuriated that a brand new hard cover edition of this book is $13 (or as low as $7 from other sellers) but the Kindle version is $15? I don't even own a Kindle but that's ridiculous pricing.
  - pydry 5y ago
    Was it? How is skipping prescreening immaterial? IMHO It's symptomatic of the broader difference in leverage between senior/junior devs.
    - actually_a_dog 5y ago
      It's immaterial because the 6 hours of hazing, which resembles nothing like what one would encounter on the job, is the bad part. Is the point of a hiring process to hire people who can regurgitate algorithms on a whiteboard in 45 minutes, or is it to find the people who are best able to do the job you're hiring for among the people who are willing to come work for you?
drran 5y ago
When you are shopping, do you buy a first apple you see or a cheapest apple you see, or you are hunting for a tastier one?
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  If I'm making a pie, I'm looking for one that works with my recipe. But, I don't see what this has to do with anything.
- odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
  Do you go licking apples when you go shopping, and from that small (most likely irrelevant) taste decide to buy the apple or not?
  - wittycardio 5y ago
    If I'm paying the apple lots of money to make sure my multi billion dollar business keeps running smoothly then yes I'm looking for a damn good Apple
wittycardio 5y ago
There is a glut of people who want to do the job because of its perks, however there's still a shortage of people who are capable of doing it ( as defined by the employer)
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  Sure, but if wages for juniors were more like ~40k instead of 100k+, and there was a steep upward wage growth from junior to midlevel to senior, you don't think that would change the candidate pool?

pydry 5y ago

I doubt a senior developer would be shocked at being invited in for an interview after a phone call.

actually_a_dog 5y ago
Okay, so you get to skip a phone screen or two before being invited to the hazing party. Big deal? That's what the word "materially" was there for.
- drran 5y ago
  A’s Hire A’s, B’s Hire C’s. If you're really a senior developer, will you enjoy to work with C's? Try to actively «fire» the interviewer at the first minutes of interview by showing the darkest points of your CV upfront. If you succeed, you will save 6 hours of hazing and a few months of your life after that. I was in a team with inexperienced PM and few crooks, which negotiated 2x salary over mine, but had no skills. They hated programming, actually. I tried to help, but PM fired me instead. The project collapsed, so they started to blame me, damaging my reputation. It was an awful experience. For me, it's easy to recognize the technical level of somebody else, because I will just ask a high-level question and then see how the discussion goes. If they say «Okey, now tell me about your experience», then they are definitely not A's.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > but PM fired me instead. Having PM manage devs is a red flag. PM and Devs should be in two different, parallels orgs.
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    Did you mean to post this in reply to someone else? I don't have any idea how you think this relates to anything I've said.
    - goohle 5y ago
      It looks like drran had a few bad interviews or a bad job recently, so he's trying to fix the world.
  - goohle 5y ago
    You cannot bullshit A's, so bringing your weak points to the table upfront will give you some credibility in the eyes of A's, but it will do the opposite in the eyes of B's. It's detailed in "Getting naked"[0]. If you are doing consultation and want satisfied clients only, or looking for an A level job only, then it's OK. If you are looking for any job (with high salary, of course), then it better to hide your weak points, to be accepted by a B, and then do the dull work. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Naked-Business-Shedding-Sabotage/dp/0787976393 https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Naked-Business-Shedding-Sabot...
    - pc86 5y ago
      I'm sorry to veer off topic but is anyone else infuriated that a brand new hard cover edition of this book is $13 (or as low as $7 from other sellers) but the Kindle version is $15? I don't even own a Kindle but that's ridiculous pricing.
- pydry 5y ago
  Was it? How is skipping prescreening immaterial? IMHO It's symptomatic of the broader difference in leverage between senior/junior devs.
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    It's immaterial because the 6 hours of hazing, which resembles nothing like what one would encounter on the job, is the bad part. Is the point of a hiring process to hire people who can regurgitate algorithms on a whiteboard in 45 minutes, or is it to find the people who are best able to do the job you're hiring for among the people who are willing to come work for you?

drran 5y ago

When you are shopping, do you buy a first apple you see or a cheapest apple you see, or you are hunting for a tastier one?

actually_a_dog 5y ago
If I'm making a pie, I'm looking for one that works with my recipe. But, I don't see what this has to do with anything.
odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
Do you go licking apples when you go shopping, and from that small (most likely irrelevant) taste decide to buy the apple or not?
- wittycardio 5y ago
  If I'm paying the apple lots of money to make sure my multi billion dollar business keeps running smoothly then yes I'm looking for a damn good Apple

wittycardio 5y ago

There is a glut of people who want to do the job because of its perks, however there's still a shortage of people who are capable of doing it ( as defined by the employer)

actually_a_dog 5y ago
Sure, but if wages for juniors were more like ~40k instead of 100k+, and there was a steep upward wage growth from junior to midlevel to senior, you don't think that would change the candidate pool?