4 ms·

I know this might be off-topic, but are you familiar with ballroom dance? If so, how does one learn to touch in a way that's not to stilted but doesn't, for lac

I know this might be off-topic, but are you familiar with ballroom dance? If so, how does one learn to touch in a way that's not to stilted but doesn't, for lack of better phrasing, "overreach" into intimate territory?

bedobi 5y ago
Not the author of the comment, but I dance socially and from what I've seen and experienced it varies wildly depending on the dancers, style of dance, context etc etc. Eg Sensual Bachata and Urban Kiz are embracing in a intimate way that can be difficult to get used to, but while it may look very overreaching to most people, overwhelmingly, it's really not sexual at all. (unless the dancers want it to be, which does happen but isn't really the norm or point of the dance)
gampleman 5y ago
From my experience its something you just very quickly get used to. Many ballroom dance moves are very difficult to perform correctly with any distance between the bodies (a quick Vienna Waltz really relies on a shared center of gravity). The thing to note with most proper ballroom posture is that the dancers are usually looking in opposite directions which I think reduces the intimacy aspect significantly.
- Dracophoenix 5y ago
  Funny you mention the Viennese Waltz as that was my favorite one mainly for the gliding spins. However, I never really got used to arm placement even after a couple of years. I never got to the point where I was able to develop an internal metric for what's insufficient or excessive touch outside of the most obvious or awkwardly extreme cases. While Bachata is the probably the most visually intimate, I'd consider the Vienesse Waltz to be most intimate in a mechanistic sense; A dominant partner has near full control over the momentum and displacement of his subordinate at all times. As a result, the onus of success lies with the dominant partner with failure resulting in many moments of backseat leading. Facing anti-parallel makes in someways it more difficult to dance as it creates a blind spot in the line of dance. This contributes to the stress of maintaining appropriate body distance between partners and couples, while also maintaining directionality, in addition to keeping the appropriate amount of pressure on a partner's upper back without betraying a weak control over ones placing. All of these elements must be simultaneously managed without a thought or a moment of hesitation and, should things go awry, must be swiftly corrected in little more than few seconds.
alex_smart 5y ago
It is part of the process of learning the dance form itself. Even in something like sensual bachata, you learn which parts of the body are "safe" and which are not. For example, upper back okay lower back not. In Kizomba, the partners are pretty much always in a pretty close embrace. Kizomba is impossible to lead without a contact at lower ribcage/upper belly with the partner. In any other setting, this would be a pretty intimate position, but in Kizomba it is not. Learning to be comfortable with it is part of learning Kizomba.
- Dracophoenix 5y ago
  I've only done International Standard, Smooth, Rhythm, and Latin dances and their American variations, but I don't recall doing Bachata and I've only learned about Kizomba as a result of this thread. With that said, I know of the obvious cases of where and how not to touch. It's other elements like hand pressure, control, silent looks, etc. the confluence of which constitute a "carnal communication" that I never fully comprehended when I still did ballroom dancing. If you have any information on what I'm trying to describe, I would be appreciative.
- Jeff_Brown 5y ago
  In my swing club in grad school we once had a Balboa lesson. The instructor used me to demonstrate, and the way she taught it, the dancers basically mash their hips together and bounce rapidly -- like 3 times a second. It felt designed by rabbits. I was embarrassed but everyone seemed to think we looked cool.
  - Dracophoenix 5y ago
    Was the instructor a working professional or another undergraduate or graduate student? How comfortable were you in general when it came to Swing?
    - Jeff_Brown 5y ago
      I think she was an undergraduate. If you mean skill, I was one of the better dance students, okay at everything and excellent at a few things. If you mean emotionally, I enjoyed it a lot, even when I felt clueless.
tremon 5y ago
Ballroom dancers are connected, most of the time, (right)hip-to-(right)hip, not groin-to-groin; that offsets quite a bit of the awkwardness. On top of that, the shoulders must be apart (both dancers should lean away from each other), which further reduces the intimacy of a casual dance. In my experience (casual dancer only), it's mostly in the tango where there's potential for overreach, because doing it properly means moving the hips closer to the ground by bending the knees, which increases the potential for upper-leg to groin contact -- that's pretty much where the tango originates from. But it's perfectly possible to dance a respectable tango with less bended knee, if things get awkward with your partner.

bedobi 5y ago

Not the author of the comment, but I dance socially and from what I've seen and experienced it varies wildly depending on the dancers, style of dance, context etc etc. Eg Sensual Bachata and Urban Kiz are embracing in a intimate way that can be difficult to get used to, but while it may look very overreaching to most people, overwhelmingly, it's really not sexual at all. (unless the dancers want it to be, which does happen but isn't really the norm or point of the dance)

gampleman 5y ago

From my experience its something you just very quickly get used to. Many ballroom dance moves are very difficult to perform correctly with any distance between the bodies (a quick Vienna Waltz really relies on a shared center of gravity). The thing to note with most proper ballroom posture is that the dancers are usually looking in opposite directions which I think reduces the intimacy aspect significantly.

Dracophoenix 5y ago
Funny you mention the Viennese Waltz as that was my favorite one mainly for the gliding spins. However, I never really got used to arm placement even after a couple of years. I never got to the point where I was able to develop an internal metric for what's insufficient or excessive touch outside of the most obvious or awkwardly extreme cases. While Bachata is the probably the most visually intimate, I'd consider the Vienesse Waltz to be most intimate in a mechanistic sense; A dominant partner has near full control over the momentum and displacement of his subordinate at all times. As a result, the onus of success lies with the dominant partner with failure resulting in many moments of backseat leading. Facing anti-parallel makes in someways it more difficult to dance as it creates a blind spot in the line of dance. This contributes to the stress of maintaining appropriate body distance between partners and couples, while also maintaining directionality, in addition to keeping the appropriate amount of pressure on a partner's upper back without betraying a weak control over ones placing. All of these elements must be simultaneously managed without a thought or a moment of hesitation and, should things go awry, must be swiftly corrected in little more than few seconds.

alex_smart 5y ago

It is part of the process of learning the dance form itself. Even in something like sensual bachata, you learn which parts of the body are "safe" and which are not. For example, upper back okay lower back not. In Kizomba, the partners are pretty much always in a pretty close embrace. Kizomba is impossible to lead without a contact at lower ribcage/upper belly with the partner. In any other setting, this would be a pretty intimate position, but in Kizomba it is not. Learning to be comfortable with it is part of learning Kizomba.

Dracophoenix 5y ago
I've only done International Standard, Smooth, Rhythm, and Latin dances and their American variations, but I don't recall doing Bachata and I've only learned about Kizomba as a result of this thread. With that said, I know of the obvious cases of where and how not to touch. It's other elements like hand pressure, control, silent looks, etc. the confluence of which constitute a "carnal communication" that I never fully comprehended when I still did ballroom dancing. If you have any information on what I'm trying to describe, I would be appreciative.
Jeff_Brown 5y ago
In my swing club in grad school we once had a Balboa lesson. The instructor used me to demonstrate, and the way she taught it, the dancers basically mash their hips together and bounce rapidly -- like 3 times a second. It felt designed by rabbits. I was embarrassed but everyone seemed to think we looked cool.
- Dracophoenix 5y ago
  Was the instructor a working professional or another undergraduate or graduate student? How comfortable were you in general when it came to Swing?
  - Jeff_Brown 5y ago
    I think she was an undergraduate. If you mean skill, I was one of the better dance students, okay at everything and excellent at a few things. If you mean emotionally, I enjoyed it a lot, even when I felt clueless.

tremon 5y ago

Ballroom dancers are connected, most of the time, (right)hip-to-(right)hip, not groin-to-groin; that offsets quite a bit of the awkwardness. On top of that, the shoulders must be apart (both dancers should lean away from each other), which further reduces the intimacy of a casual dance. In my experience (casual dancer only), it's mostly in the tango where there's potential for overreach, because doing it properly means moving the hips closer to the ground by bending the knees, which increases the potential for upper-leg to groin contact -- that's pretty much where the tango originates from. But it's perfectly possible to dance a respectable tango with less bended knee, if things get awkward with your partner.