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> Miyazaki’s movies, with their warplanes and intrusions of Western décor and dress, keep circling back to the traumatic moment when Japan, which until the mid-

> Miyazaki’s movies, with their warplanes and intrusions of Western décor and dress, keep circling back to the traumatic moment when Japan, which until the mid-19th century had kept itself closed off to the outside world, was forced to embrace the West and Western values. This is downright wrong, the Meiji Restoration was when Japan absorbed westernization, not to mention their partial acceptance of Christianity during Imjin War, they were said to be the most open to conversion before suddenly persecuting the Jesuit priests, yet one of the daimyo (renamed Augustine) who was instrumental in the Korean invasion was a devout Christian and was said to have adopted a devout Korean Christian woman, who was certainly Christian enough to be persecuted and is worshipped in both Korea and Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Ota https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Ota

DocTomoe 5y ago
It is not outright wrong, just incomplete, and refers to the period of seclusion between 1639 and 1853. In all, 16th century European Jesuits (and to a much lesser extend: Franciscians) in Japan are a footnote in history, with Daimyo's specifically adapting Christianity in order to have better trade relations (and thus easier access to firearms) with the Portugese (and later Spainards). Stories of high daimyos exclusively converting to Christianity were great success story fodder for the Jesuits to write home to European courts and ask for more money for their mission (and in fact: such tractats and letters have survived, and are available in university libraries today. The most colourful of these writings come from Luís Fróis). Japanese common-people understanding of Christianity was highly syncretised even back then (as Jesuits adapted Christian stories into plays, and matched story tropes and experiences of their Japanese audience, one famous example is Jesus' apostels morphing into samurai serving their daimyo Jesus). These religious ideas became even more intertwined when Jesuits were not around (e.g. Mary often was fused with Amida Buddha), and when Christianity was banned and Christians were persecuted, several tiny groups were able to survive in hiding (hanare kirishitan) and develop their own dogma which eventually diverged so much from original Christianity that when they resurfaced in the late 1800s, Western Christians did not accept them as compatible. These hanare kirishitan were at risk of extinction in the 1990s. There is no indication of widespread adoption of Christianity, especially exclusive Christianity even in original Jesuit sources. What did happen was that Christianity was mostly understood as yet another Buddhist sect for most of its 16th century presence. When the Shogunate decided that they weren't (and the Franciscians demanded Spanish military fortifications in Japan, among other incidents), Japanese authorities decided to shut down Christianity. The Tokugawa era is sometimes described as "Japan's second medieval age", which ended - abruptly so - with Perry's show of force. The assessment that Japan only started westernisation in the aftermath of a traumatic event (the landing of Perry's steam-powered warships in a quasi-medieval society is described by then-living Japanese authors much like we today would write about extraterrestial invasion) is pretty fair.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  I misread 19th century as 1900s. I wouldn’t call it Christian adoption, but there was much Christian suppression when many people were converting others, why would they need to be suppressed if it wasn’t widespread? It didn’t need to be commoners, it could be an elite ruling class that was Christian for it to influence society. Japan had embraced western ideas and they certainly loved the Portuguese guns and were influenced by the west way before WWII in significant ways. I’m very interested in Japanese Christianity, the story sounds fascinating.
  - DocTomoe 5y ago
    The Japanese "ruling class" at that time was extremely small, even by today's standards. Any adoption of Christianity that amounted to anything necessarily would have to have footing in the common people. Which to some extend did happen, either by forced baptisms demanded by the local daimyo (though inspired by and motivated from the local clergy), by some extend by the Jesuits doing charitable work in a century of basically non-stop civil war in which the predominant Buddhist sects concentrated on appealing to the warrior caste. Persecution of Christians focussed on priests at first (who usually were executed), but became increasingly focussed on the small commoners groups in the 1640s (who usually were given the option to apostate). Unsurprisingly, these efforts were focussed on Kyushu. Interestingly, we see christianity being syncretised again in Japan today, sometimes in weird and borderline funny concepts like the 'crucified Santa' iconography that has been showing up recently. A good first primer in early Christianity in Japan that's not an original source is Mullins, Mark (1998). Christianity Made in Japan: A Study of Indigenous Movements. University of Hawaii Press or Boxer, C.R. (1951). The Christian Century in Japan: 1549–1650. University of California Press. For some information on the hanare kirishitan, the primer would be Whelan, Christal (1996). The beginning of heaven and earth : the sacred book of Japan's hidden Christians. University of Hawaii Press
jkhdigital 5y ago
My understanding is that during the Meiji period Japan imported wholesale those aspects of Western material and political culture that would allow them to achieve some level of parity with Western powers. This is not quite the same thing as “embracing Western values”. And even on that note, I’d question the extent to which postwar Japan has actually adopted Western liberalism as its own value system.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  I misread the article at night and thought it was 1900s not 19th century. They sent students abroad. Aside from being less accepting of immigrants how is the effects of their policy different from a European country?

DocTomoe 5y ago

It is not outright wrong, just incomplete, and refers to the period of seclusion between 1639 and 1853. In all, 16th century European Jesuits (and to a much lesser extend: Franciscians) in Japan are a footnote in history, with Daimyo's specifically adapting Christianity in order to have better trade relations (and thus easier access to firearms) with the Portugese (and later Spainards). Stories of high daimyos exclusively converting to Christianity were great success story fodder for the Jesuits to write home to European courts and ask for more money for their mission (and in fact: such tractats and letters have survived, and are available in university libraries today. The most colourful of these writings come from Luís Fróis). Japanese common-people understanding of Christianity was highly syncretised even back then (as Jesuits adapted Christian stories into plays, and matched story tropes and experiences of their Japanese audience, one famous example is Jesus' apostels morphing into samurai serving their daimyo Jesus). These religious ideas became even more intertwined when Jesuits were not around (e.g. Mary often was fused with Amida Buddha), and when Christianity was banned and Christians were persecuted, several tiny groups were able to survive in hiding (hanare kirishitan) and develop their own dogma which eventually diverged so much from original Christianity that when they resurfaced in the late 1800s, Western Christians did not accept them as compatible. These hanare kirishitan were at risk of extinction in the 1990s. There is no indication of widespread adoption of Christianity, especially exclusive Christianity even in original Jesuit sources. What did happen was that Christianity was mostly understood as yet another Buddhist sect for most of its 16th century presence. When the Shogunate decided that they weren't (and the Franciscians demanded Spanish military fortifications in Japan, among other incidents), Japanese authorities decided to shut down Christianity. The Tokugawa era is sometimes described as "Japan's second medieval age", which ended - abruptly so - with Perry's show of force. The assessment that Japan only started westernisation in the aftermath of a traumatic event (the landing of Perry's steam-powered warships in a quasi-medieval society is described by then-living Japanese authors much like we today would write about extraterrestial invasion) is pretty fair.

GhettoComputers 5y ago
I misread 19th century as 1900s. I wouldn’t call it Christian adoption, but there was much Christian suppression when many people were converting others, why would they need to be suppressed if it wasn’t widespread? It didn’t need to be commoners, it could be an elite ruling class that was Christian for it to influence society. Japan had embraced western ideas and they certainly loved the Portuguese guns and were influenced by the west way before WWII in significant ways. I’m very interested in Japanese Christianity, the story sounds fascinating.
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  The Japanese "ruling class" at that time was extremely small, even by today's standards. Any adoption of Christianity that amounted to anything necessarily would have to have footing in the common people. Which to some extend did happen, either by forced baptisms demanded by the local daimyo (though inspired by and motivated from the local clergy), by some extend by the Jesuits doing charitable work in a century of basically non-stop civil war in which the predominant Buddhist sects concentrated on appealing to the warrior caste. Persecution of Christians focussed on priests at first (who usually were executed), but became increasingly focussed on the small commoners groups in the 1640s (who usually were given the option to apostate). Unsurprisingly, these efforts were focussed on Kyushu. Interestingly, we see christianity being syncretised again in Japan today, sometimes in weird and borderline funny concepts like the 'crucified Santa' iconography that has been showing up recently. A good first primer in early Christianity in Japan that's not an original source is Mullins, Mark (1998). Christianity Made in Japan: A Study of Indigenous Movements. University of Hawaii Press or Boxer, C.R. (1951). The Christian Century in Japan: 1549–1650. University of California Press. For some information on the hanare kirishitan, the primer would be Whelan, Christal (1996). The beginning of heaven and earth : the sacred book of Japan's hidden Christians. University of Hawaii Press

jkhdigital 5y ago

My understanding is that during the Meiji period Japan imported wholesale those aspects of Western material and political culture that would allow them to achieve some level of parity with Western powers. This is not quite the same thing as “embracing Western values”. And even on that note, I’d question the extent to which postwar Japan has actually adopted Western liberalism as its own value system.

GhettoComputers 5y ago
I misread the article at night and thought it was 1900s not 19th century. They sent students abroad. Aside from being less accepting of immigrants how is the effects of their policy different from a European country?