4 ms·

Granted a bachelors in C.S. (or to less effect in any other major). Granted x2 you have the funding available to pay for it (much less the time and energy if y

Granted a bachelors in C.S. (or to less effect in any other major). Granted x2 you have the funding available to pay for it (much less the time and energy if you have to work to pay for it -- i.e. your parents did not finance your tuition, much less your living costs) Granted x3 you actually have the mental ability to program at all (it is incredible how much this is taken for granted. No, you cannot just "teach" anyone anywhere off the street to understand programming). Without the first, you're "relegated" (tongue-in-cheek) to: learning it in your off-time/going to a bootcamp and hustling hard to break into a first role at a most-certainly shitty-place-to-work at an under-market salary (think $60-70k for "mid-level"). If you do not have a low-performance job or a free place to stay, this is very difficult (bills, and the low-skilled work required to pay them, are exhausting). If you can make it past that insanely high hurdle (see: your circumstances and luck are right), then yes: you too can join the upper middle class if your birth, and all the dominoes that fell after, are "up to the task." N.B. it becomes vastly more difficult to learn anything at all when you're exhausted after a 10 hour day working (with or without a commute) a depressing job and wondering if you'll have any money left at the end of the month. Those weekends really do nothing at all except leave time to catch up on chores. Unparalleled? Only on the surface, granted a robust social safety net. Without someone or something to take off the immense pressure of surviving alone, the most likely outcome is a downward-spiral into poor habits: substance abuse, poor diet, free-time spent in idleness to "recharge," poor sleep, etc. that all compound one another, and speed-up the fall into an inescapable pit of being permanently working class. Once in, to leave is an exception that is always hailed as proof of possibility (sweeping under the rug, how low the real probability is). In this case, one could still semi-honestly say "class mobility" is still alive; but that would only apply to the offspring of our hypothetical working-class stiff (hopefully, who becomes a social safety net for these children -- but I'm not holding my breath).

rektide 5y ago
this whole thread feels hella off topic to me. it's examining one particular end for doing good. lots of very small businesses exist jn america & many many many fail but many do well. many find bigger success. as for software, many of my favorite coworkers are self taught former art history students who picked up some skills over time. they're great, they had wonderful skills. absolutely, this is person by person. but i think as much is just luckkng into a condusive good learning situation, getting to see the good perspectives & not get bogged down with the small stupid tech battles that dot the programming landacape. not getting burdened is a huge pro career skill wherever you are, but definitely super important for most tech folks. the struggle is super real. but focusing only on the struggle, the difficulty; it disservices the potentials that do exist. there's a dual. everything is extremely hard & working towards better is precarious at best. the ways to fall off are vast. but let's not lretend that opportunity isnt here. not just in tech but in many ways to make futures in america, in many places. we can both acknowledge weakness & difficulty & struggle, and also accept potential. the two do not need to be so zero sum, only one can be true, in nature.
- throwaway2331 5y ago
  The point is that if there are people suffering throughout the world; and when one points to a very rare improbability as the "way out," while swiftly moving past the topic as "done and closed": that's a dumb take. Yes, one can go through hell-and-back, roll the dice, and pray and hope that endless struggle for a better life will turn out well -- even if the odds are awful. No, this should not be the only way towards a better life or lauded as "unparalleled social mobility."
  - vinceguidry 5y ago
    > No, this should not be... There it is. You're being prescriptive rather than descriptive. We're talking about the world as it is, you're talking about the world you want to be. Only one of these exists. As bad as it is here, it's worse everywhere else.
    - throwaway2331 5y ago
      Having spent the greater part of my life trying to be an unbiased, descriptivist bent on being a realist---I've realized it was a waste of time; and I was a coward. Neither world exists. There is no objective observation. Our senses are limited, and our neurons filter through what we "observe," in order to create a cohesive story that doesn't disturb the one that's been continuously built all our lives. (Elsewhere, one could write an encyclopaedia's-worth of examples how our rational faculties are lacking in the absolute sense.) The only thing that is different between the two is their proclivity for (or lack thereof) taking action.
      - vinceguidry 5y ago
        You do you. But when you're talking to others people listen to you to the extent that your observations and conclusions reflect reality, not just ideals. Just explaining what should be is the equivalent of the "biz guy" who only has ideas, not the skills to execute. > There is no objective observation. This is a thing you can believe in. But if you do it will very much make it more difficult to relate. Striving to be objective is a very valid and worthwhile thing to work towards. Throwing your hands up and saying it's impossible is ultimately worse. I don't know you, but I'd be willing to guess that your "unbiased, descriptivist bent" was rather overly rational. HN gets hyper-rational and rewards that frame of mind, to the detriment of the community. What I mean by working to be objective is to work to understand subjective, emotional states of mind. Emotionally, we want the world to be a certain way and when it's not, we become irrational, in ways that are actually rather predictable when you can reflect on them. Objectivity is earned when you can understand not only the logical aspects of the world, but also the subjective ones too.

rektide 5y ago

this whole thread feels hella off topic to me. it's examining one particular end for doing good. lots of very small businesses exist jn america & many many many fail but many do well. many find bigger success. as for software, many of my favorite coworkers are self taught former art history students who picked up some skills over time. they're great, they had wonderful skills. absolutely, this is person by person. but i think as much is just luckkng into a condusive good learning situation, getting to see the good perspectives & not get bogged down with the small stupid tech battles that dot the programming landacape. not getting burdened is a huge pro career skill wherever you are, but definitely super important for most tech folks. the struggle is super real. but focusing only on the struggle, the difficulty; it disservices the potentials that do exist. there's a dual. everything is extremely hard & working towards better is precarious at best. the ways to fall off are vast. but let's not lretend that opportunity isnt here. not just in tech but in many ways to make futures in america, in many places. we can both acknowledge weakness & difficulty & struggle, and also accept potential. the two do not need to be so zero sum, only one can be true, in nature.

throwaway2331 5y ago
The point is that if there are people suffering throughout the world; and when one points to a very rare improbability as the "way out," while swiftly moving past the topic as "done and closed": that's a dumb take. Yes, one can go through hell-and-back, roll the dice, and pray and hope that endless struggle for a better life will turn out well -- even if the odds are awful. No, this should not be the only way towards a better life or lauded as "unparalleled social mobility."
- vinceguidry 5y ago
  > No, this should not be... There it is. You're being prescriptive rather than descriptive. We're talking about the world as it is, you're talking about the world you want to be. Only one of these exists. As bad as it is here, it's worse everywhere else.
  - throwaway2331 5y ago
    Having spent the greater part of my life trying to be an unbiased, descriptivist bent on being a realist---I've realized it was a waste of time; and I was a coward. Neither world exists. There is no objective observation. Our senses are limited, and our neurons filter through what we "observe," in order to create a cohesive story that doesn't disturb the one that's been continuously built all our lives. (Elsewhere, one could write an encyclopaedia's-worth of examples how our rational faculties are lacking in the absolute sense.) The only thing that is different between the two is their proclivity for (or lack thereof) taking action.
    - vinceguidry 5y ago
      You do you. But when you're talking to others people listen to you to the extent that your observations and conclusions reflect reality, not just ideals. Just explaining what should be is the equivalent of the "biz guy" who only has ideas, not the skills to execute. > There is no objective observation. This is a thing you can believe in. But if you do it will very much make it more difficult to relate. Striving to be objective is a very valid and worthwhile thing to work towards. Throwing your hands up and saying it's impossible is ultimately worse. I don't know you, but I'd be willing to guess that your "unbiased, descriptivist bent" was rather overly rational. HN gets hyper-rational and rewards that frame of mind, to the detriment of the community. What I mean by working to be objective is to work to understand subjective, emotional states of mind. Emotionally, we want the world to be a certain way and when it's not, we become irrational, in ways that are actually rather predictable when you can reflect on them. Objectivity is earned when you can understand not only the logical aspects of the world, but also the subjective ones too.