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I think China is probably worse. I'll give you that. I think you underestimate how much birth is destiny in the USA. You'd be amazed at how many rags to riches

I think China is probably worse. I'll give you that. I think you underestimate how much birth is destiny in the USA. You'd be amazed at how many rags to riches stories in the US are just attempts to be relatable by people who actually come from extreme privilege. Even a lot of successful musicians and actors are only able to attain success because of a safety net in the form a wealthy parents.

vinceguidry 5y ago
Here, it is possible to move oneself from working class to upper-middle class by working in the software industry. Our children have free rein to move to the upper class if they're up to the task. In Asia, it appears to only be possible to move up a small rung or two per generation, maybe more if you're lucky enough to win the university lottery. Class mobility is still unparalleled in the West.
- throwaway2331 5y ago
  Granted a bachelors in C.S. (or to less effect in any other major). Granted x2 you have the funding available to pay for it (much less the time and energy if you have to work to pay for it -- i.e. your parents did not finance your tuition, much less your living costs) Granted x3 you actually have the mental ability to program at all (it is incredible how much this is taken for granted. No, you cannot just "teach" anyone anywhere off the street to understand programming). Without the first, you're "relegated" (tongue-in-cheek) to: learning it in your off-time/going to a bootcamp and hustling hard to break into a first role at a most-certainly shitty-place-to-work at an under-market salary (think $60-70k for "mid-level"). If you do not have a low-performance job or a free place to stay, this is very difficult (bills, and the low-skilled work required to pay them, are exhausting). If you can make it past that insanely high hurdle (see: your circumstances and luck are right), then yes: you too can join the upper middle class if your birth, and all the dominoes that fell after, are "up to the task." N.B. it becomes vastly more difficult to learn anything at all when you're exhausted after a 10 hour day working (with or without a commute) a depressing job and wondering if you'll have any money left at the end of the month. Those weekends really do nothing at all except leave time to catch up on chores. Unparalleled? Only on the surface, granted a robust social safety net. Without someone or something to take off the immense pressure of surviving alone, the most likely outcome is a downward-spiral into poor habits: substance abuse, poor diet, free-time spent in idleness to "recharge," poor sleep, etc. that all compound one another, and speed-up the fall into an inescapable pit of being permanently working class. Once in, to leave is an exception that is always hailed as proof of possibility (sweeping under the rug, how low the real probability is). In this case, one could still semi-honestly say "class mobility" is still alive; but that would only apply to the offspring of our hypothetical working-class stiff (hopefully, who becomes a social safety net for these children -- but I'm not holding my breath).
  - rektide 5y ago
    this whole thread feels hella off topic to me. it's examining one particular end for doing good. lots of very small businesses exist jn america & many many many fail but many do well. many find bigger success. as for software, many of my favorite coworkers are self taught former art history students who picked up some skills over time. they're great, they had wonderful skills. absolutely, this is person by person. but i think as much is just luckkng into a condusive good learning situation, getting to see the good perspectives & not get bogged down with the small stupid tech battles that dot the programming landacape. not getting burdened is a huge pro career skill wherever you are, but definitely super important for most tech folks. the struggle is super real. but focusing only on the struggle, the difficulty; it disservices the potentials that do exist. there's a dual. everything is extremely hard & working towards better is precarious at best. the ways to fall off are vast. but let's not lretend that opportunity isnt here. not just in tech but in many ways to make futures in america, in many places. we can both acknowledge weakness & difficulty & struggle, and also accept potential. the two do not need to be so zero sum, only one can be true, in nature.
    - throwaway2331 5y ago
      The point is that if there are people suffering throughout the world; and when one points to a very rare improbability as the "way out," while swiftly moving past the topic as "done and closed": that's a dumb take. Yes, one can go through hell-and-back, roll the dice, and pray and hope that endless struggle for a better life will turn out well -- even if the odds are awful. No, this should not be the only way towards a better life or lauded as "unparalleled social mobility."
      - vinceguidry 5y ago
        > No, this should not be... There it is. You're being prescriptive rather than descriptive. We're talking about the world as it is, you're talking about the world you want to be. Only one of these exists. As bad as it is here, it's worse everywhere else.
        5y ago

vinceguidry 5y ago

Here, it is possible to move oneself from working class to upper-middle class by working in the software industry. Our children have free rein to move to the upper class if they're up to the task. In Asia, it appears to only be possible to move up a small rung or two per generation, maybe more if you're lucky enough to win the university lottery. Class mobility is still unparalleled in the West.

throwaway2331 5y ago
Granted a bachelors in C.S. (or to less effect in any other major). Granted x2 you have the funding available to pay for it (much less the time and energy if you have to work to pay for it -- i.e. your parents did not finance your tuition, much less your living costs) Granted x3 you actually have the mental ability to program at all (it is incredible how much this is taken for granted. No, you cannot just "teach" anyone anywhere off the street to understand programming). Without the first, you're "relegated" (tongue-in-cheek) to: learning it in your off-time/going to a bootcamp and hustling hard to break into a first role at a most-certainly shitty-place-to-work at an under-market salary (think $60-70k for "mid-level"). If you do not have a low-performance job or a free place to stay, this is very difficult (bills, and the low-skilled work required to pay them, are exhausting). If you can make it past that insanely high hurdle (see: your circumstances and luck are right), then yes: you too can join the upper middle class if your birth, and all the dominoes that fell after, are "up to the task." N.B. it becomes vastly more difficult to learn anything at all when you're exhausted after a 10 hour day working (with or without a commute) a depressing job and wondering if you'll have any money left at the end of the month. Those weekends really do nothing at all except leave time to catch up on chores. Unparalleled? Only on the surface, granted a robust social safety net. Without someone or something to take off the immense pressure of surviving alone, the most likely outcome is a downward-spiral into poor habits: substance abuse, poor diet, free-time spent in idleness to "recharge," poor sleep, etc. that all compound one another, and speed-up the fall into an inescapable pit of being permanently working class. Once in, to leave is an exception that is always hailed as proof of possibility (sweeping under the rug, how low the real probability is). In this case, one could still semi-honestly say "class mobility" is still alive; but that would only apply to the offspring of our hypothetical working-class stiff (hopefully, who becomes a social safety net for these children -- but I'm not holding my breath).
- rektide 5y ago
  this whole thread feels hella off topic to me. it's examining one particular end for doing good. lots of very small businesses exist jn america & many many many fail but many do well. many find bigger success. as for software, many of my favorite coworkers are self taught former art history students who picked up some skills over time. they're great, they had wonderful skills. absolutely, this is person by person. but i think as much is just luckkng into a condusive good learning situation, getting to see the good perspectives & not get bogged down with the small stupid tech battles that dot the programming landacape. not getting burdened is a huge pro career skill wherever you are, but definitely super important for most tech folks. the struggle is super real. but focusing only on the struggle, the difficulty; it disservices the potentials that do exist. there's a dual. everything is extremely hard & working towards better is precarious at best. the ways to fall off are vast. but let's not lretend that opportunity isnt here. not just in tech but in many ways to make futures in america, in many places. we can both acknowledge weakness & difficulty & struggle, and also accept potential. the two do not need to be so zero sum, only one can be true, in nature.
  - throwaway2331 5y ago
    The point is that if there are people suffering throughout the world; and when one points to a very rare improbability as the "way out," while swiftly moving past the topic as "done and closed": that's a dumb take. Yes, one can go through hell-and-back, roll the dice, and pray and hope that endless struggle for a better life will turn out well -- even if the odds are awful. No, this should not be the only way towards a better life or lauded as "unparalleled social mobility."
    - vinceguidry 5y ago
      > No, this should not be... There it is. You're being prescriptive rather than descriptive. We're talking about the world as it is, you're talking about the world you want to be. Only one of these exists. As bad as it is here, it's worse everywhere else.
      - 5y ago