4 ms·

The West, at the very least, allows people on prime time TV to insult even the highest-ranking leaders in the most dirty and savage ways imagined. This is catha

The West, at the very least, allows people on prime time TV to insult even the highest-ranking leaders in the most dirty and savage ways imagined. This is cathartic. That China doesn’t allow this is a sign of deep insecurity. If you think both sides have a conspiracy of elites that manipulate everything for their own ends, at least in the US we can have TV hosts point it out without fear of torture. Is that not proof of moral superiority?

ncmncm 5y ago
In a word, no. As you say yourself, it's a measure of relative security. US elites know their position can rarely be threatened by what is said in TV. We see the response to actual threats in the treatment of people who reveal the mechanisms of authority, most symbolically Edward Snowden.
- duxup 5y ago
  Im confused as to how you think this plays out. Do US elites somehow prevent news of things that threaten them from being discussed? I don’t think so, and I think many fall because of it.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Jeffrey Epstein fell. Bill Gates lost his wife over his long-standing, deep involvement with Epstein. That is very, very carefully never, ever mentioned on TV. Bill Clinton, likewise.
    - duxup 5y ago
      Lots of “elite” fall in the west, the freedoms and government are how that happens. We’re talking about it now.
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        The actual elites in the US very, very rarely fall. The remaining Koch brother is as secure as ever, Trump or no, Jan 6 or no. Even Trump is knocking around loose, protected by Secret Service guards. That is what makes events around Epstein and his circle notable. And, no one will ever say on TV that Gates was in bed with Epstein going back three decades. I have no way to learn the extent of the Koch's engagement. Gates maintains just as high a profile as before.
        duxup 5y ago
        I feel like you’re moving goalposts, describing their fall and then saying they rarely fall because any exist at all. Trump is no longer president and not by his choice, the people chose that. That’s a great example right there.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        You make no sense. There are thousands of American billionaires, most of whom you have never heard of. They do not go to jail. They do not worry about the prospect of going to jail. Exactly one (1) American billionaire did go to jail. He was executed before any trial could be staged, probably because of unpleasant facts he might have revealed about the other billionaires. Trump is no longer president, but is very prominently not in jail, never mind disappeared. Prosecution of a president or ex-president for crimes committed while in office is different from that for regular citizens. He was not found innocent, in any sense. If impeachment had succeeded, he still would not go to jail. He is also not a billionaire, despite having threatened to sue people for having said so, but he does count as elite. Nothing said on TV could have even any slight effect on his comfort level. His position is absolutely secure.
    - jollybean 5y ago
      "Bill Gates lost his wife over his long-standing, deep involvement with Epstein. That is very, very carefully never, ever mentioned on TV." Except it's plastered all over the TV, all over print and digital media, and literally everyone in the world knows about it, or has access to a lot of information about it! In the meantime in China, a tennis player accused someone of something and was 'dissapeared', her accusations erased, and now she talks like a puppet prisoner of the state reading lines from the CCP PR team. These comparisons are not helping your case.
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        Epstein and Gates are only ever mentioned together in connection with money-related events in the past decade, not the activities in the previous millennium that would legitimately have motivated his divorce. The fact is that Gates's public persona is barely affected. He still gets to pump his investment targets and his favorite authors. It is hard to think of any examples besides Epstein demonstrating any kind of vulnerability among the elite. Even Trump is still running loose despite involvement in the first actual violent insurrection in 15 decades. Epstein is the only US billionaire I have ever heard of so much as going to jail, never mind arraigned, tried, convicted, sentenced, or sent up. By contrast, top party apparats in China and oligarchs in Russia are disappeared every few years. Epstein is big news because it is a total fluke. My assertion is that US elites are overwhelmingly more secure than Chinese elites, so devote correspondingly less attention to scrubbing the public discourse. Still, the ones getting transfusions of blood taken from infants are not being discussed on GMA.
        jollybean 5y ago
        The specific involvement of Gates + Epstein is not known but more than likely, he was boinking prostitutes. It has definitely hurts his brand, that said, boinking prostitutes is not a high crime. There's no evidence to suggest that Gates was involved in really bad stuff. Prince Andrew's public indictment in more serious stuff repudiates the insinuation that the elite are not held to account. Maxwell is an Upper Class French Elite and her trial is visible now for the world to see. Trump's goings on are also well publicized. They are not apparently illegal, so he's fine. As far as his supporters, well, that's too bad but his actions are public, and it's their absolute choice to support him. FYI being blunt about 'Building A Wall' is not inherently, objectively immoral. Trump is not technically corrupt: the IRS audits him extensively every single year, he had an investigations into his Russian dealings with over 300 witnesses and they turned up nothing on him. Even Biden Jr's actions are constantly scrutinized. Bernie Maddoff and other Pozni Schemers are in jail (soon Holmes) , andmost Billionaires don't commit crimes. They have too much to lose. Could you imagine Xi being charged and imprisoned like Epstein? On trial like Maxwell? Massive Federal Investigation like Trump? Or private information about his apparently infidelity all over the internet? Xi's children in the press every few weeks where journalists pour over conflicts of interest? In China they dissapear Billionaires for not following party orders, not for being corrupt. Just as in Russia, all rich prisoners are effectively political prisoners.
- jollybean 5y ago
  This is not an argument. Edward Snowden is one person, and he leaked information that was far beyond merely Whistleblowing. He also has a right to a trial in the US. The real comparison is for most people on most issues, in that regard, the US is immensely more free. On the other end the 'Edward Snowdens' of China were executed long before anyone knew who they even were, for much lesser crimes. There are 100's of thousands of people in Chinese prisons who are there merely for being of a certain ethnicity.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    > people in Chinese prisons who are there merely for being of a certain ethnicity. That is an odd example to trot out, given the overwhelmingly greater number of black people held in US prisons for basically the same reason. But the topic you keep trying to distract us from is the relative security of the US elite class, which has nothing to do with underclass in prison.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
sobkas 5y ago
> The West, at the very least, allows people on prime time TV to insult even the highest-ranking leaders in the most dirty and savage ways imagined. This is cathartic. Well, not every western country is an America. In Poland there is a law against insulting heads of states, public officers and flag. So not everywhere you can speak what you want.

ncmncm 5y ago

In a word, no. As you say yourself, it's a measure of relative security. US elites know their position can rarely be threatened by what is said in TV. We see the response to actual threats in the treatment of people who reveal the mechanisms of authority, most symbolically Edward Snowden.

duxup 5y ago
Im confused as to how you think this plays out. Do US elites somehow prevent news of things that threaten them from being discussed? I don’t think so, and I think many fall because of it.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Jeffrey Epstein fell. Bill Gates lost his wife over his long-standing, deep involvement with Epstein. That is very, very carefully never, ever mentioned on TV. Bill Clinton, likewise.
  - duxup 5y ago
    Lots of “elite” fall in the west, the freedoms and government are how that happens. We’re talking about it now.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      The actual elites in the US very, very rarely fall. The remaining Koch brother is as secure as ever, Trump or no, Jan 6 or no. Even Trump is knocking around loose, protected by Secret Service guards. That is what makes events around Epstein and his circle notable. And, no one will ever say on TV that Gates was in bed with Epstein going back three decades. I have no way to learn the extent of the Koch's engagement. Gates maintains just as high a profile as before.
      - duxup 5y ago
        I feel like you’re moving goalposts, describing their fall and then saying they rarely fall because any exist at all. Trump is no longer president and not by his choice, the people chose that. That’s a great example right there.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        You make no sense. There are thousands of American billionaires, most of whom you have never heard of. They do not go to jail. They do not worry about the prospect of going to jail. Exactly one (1) American billionaire did go to jail. He was executed before any trial could be staged, probably because of unpleasant facts he might have revealed about the other billionaires. Trump is no longer president, but is very prominently not in jail, never mind disappeared. Prosecution of a president or ex-president for crimes committed while in office is different from that for regular citizens. He was not found innocent, in any sense. If impeachment had succeeded, he still would not go to jail. He is also not a billionaire, despite having threatened to sue people for having said so, but he does count as elite. Nothing said on TV could have even any slight effect on his comfort level. His position is absolutely secure.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    "Bill Gates lost his wife over his long-standing, deep involvement with Epstein. That is very, very carefully never, ever mentioned on TV." Except it's plastered all over the TV, all over print and digital media, and literally everyone in the world knows about it, or has access to a lot of information about it! In the meantime in China, a tennis player accused someone of something and was 'dissapeared', her accusations erased, and now she talks like a puppet prisoner of the state reading lines from the CCP PR team. These comparisons are not helping your case.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Epstein and Gates are only ever mentioned together in connection with money-related events in the past decade, not the activities in the previous millennium that would legitimately have motivated his divorce. The fact is that Gates's public persona is barely affected. He still gets to pump his investment targets and his favorite authors. It is hard to think of any examples besides Epstein demonstrating any kind of vulnerability among the elite. Even Trump is still running loose despite involvement in the first actual violent insurrection in 15 decades. Epstein is the only US billionaire I have ever heard of so much as going to jail, never mind arraigned, tried, convicted, sentenced, or sent up. By contrast, top party apparats in China and oligarchs in Russia are disappeared every few years. Epstein is big news because it is a total fluke. My assertion is that US elites are overwhelmingly more secure than Chinese elites, so devote correspondingly less attention to scrubbing the public discourse. Still, the ones getting transfusions of blood taken from infants are not being discussed on GMA.
      - jollybean 5y ago
        The specific involvement of Gates + Epstein is not known but more than likely, he was boinking prostitutes. It has definitely hurts his brand, that said, boinking prostitutes is not a high crime. There's no evidence to suggest that Gates was involved in really bad stuff. Prince Andrew's public indictment in more serious stuff repudiates the insinuation that the elite are not held to account. Maxwell is an Upper Class French Elite and her trial is visible now for the world to see. Trump's goings on are also well publicized. They are not apparently illegal, so he's fine. As far as his supporters, well, that's too bad but his actions are public, and it's their absolute choice to support him. FYI being blunt about 'Building A Wall' is not inherently, objectively immoral. Trump is not technically corrupt: the IRS audits him extensively every single year, he had an investigations into his Russian dealings with over 300 witnesses and they turned up nothing on him. Even Biden Jr's actions are constantly scrutinized. Bernie Maddoff and other Pozni Schemers are in jail (soon Holmes) , andmost Billionaires don't commit crimes. They have too much to lose. Could you imagine Xi being charged and imprisoned like Epstein? On trial like Maxwell? Massive Federal Investigation like Trump? Or private information about his apparently infidelity all over the internet? Xi's children in the press every few weeks where journalists pour over conflicts of interest? In China they dissapear Billionaires for not following party orders, not for being corrupt. Just as in Russia, all rich prisoners are effectively political prisoners.
jollybean 5y ago
This is not an argument. Edward Snowden is one person, and he leaked information that was far beyond merely Whistleblowing. He also has a right to a trial in the US. The real comparison is for most people on most issues, in that regard, the US is immensely more free. On the other end the 'Edward Snowdens' of China were executed long before anyone knew who they even were, for much lesser crimes. There are 100's of thousands of people in Chinese prisons who are there merely for being of a certain ethnicity.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  > people in Chinese prisons who are there merely for being of a certain ethnicity. That is an odd example to trot out, given the overwhelmingly greater number of black people held in US prisons for basically the same reason. But the topic you keep trying to distract us from is the relative security of the US elite class, which has nothing to do with underclass in prison.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

sobkas 5y ago

> The West, at the very least, allows people on prime time TV to insult even the highest-ranking leaders in the most dirty and savage ways imagined. This is cathartic. Well, not every western country is an America. In Poland there is a law against insulting heads of states, public officers and flag. So not everywhere you can speak what you want.