4 ms·

Because of qualified immunity they do not fear any sort of repercussions from the law and since they got all of these military hand me down toys they've been it

Because of qualified immunity they do not fear any sort of repercussions from the law and since they got all of these military hand me down toys they've been itching to find an excuse to use them. They can do a no knock raid on the wrong house, kill the occupants, and face no repercussions.

notreallyserio 5y ago
Further, despite 2A advocates claiming it is there to defend against tyranny, the police do not actually fear violent repercussions after the fact because it pretty much never happens. (Of course they do fear attack in the moment, when they're instigating.)
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  > the police do not actually fear violent repercussions after the fact because it pretty much never happens On the rare occurrences when it happens it does change how the agency involved approaches things in the future. See Waco vs Bundy ranch.
  - MontagFTB 5y ago
    Do you mean the Branch Davidians?
  - barry-cotter 5y ago
    What do you mean? No one faced any repercussions for the deaths of all those people. No one was fired. The officers in charge continued to have successful careers.
    - ctdonath 5y ago
      No government agency attempted anything like the Branch Davidian raid for the next 15 years.
      - notreallyserio 5y ago
        How often were they doing this before the Branch Davidian raid? I honestly don't know. If it was rare it's hard to infer anything from what they've done or not done since.
        throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        The Branch Dividian raid was supposed to be an easy political win for the feds "look at all these guns we've taken from these christian fundamentalist wackos" to distract from the Ruby Ridge incident a year prior that everyone hated them for.
        ctdonath 5y ago
        Of note, both lethal cases occurred over failure to submit 4 pages of registration and a $200 tax (NFA Form 1 or 4).
        ctdonath 5y ago
        There was a clear trajectory toward increasing such aggressive raids. Quarter-century-old details escape me at the moment, but many were quite aware of such things ramping up. The Ruby Ridge incident was comparably violent but on a smaller scale, a high-profile violent raid occurring a year earlier. While there were no known punishments for agents/managers of the Branch Davidian incident, there was clearly a massive change in attitude toward using such tactics, lasting decades. The Elian Gonzales incident seemed a hesitating/reluctant resumption 15 years after, again avoided thereafter. The Bundy Ranch incident seemed ready to go there again, but was largely dissuaded by armed citizens. Of late, perceived rhetoric pointing toward resuming aggressive raids is increasing, but held back back per plurality of sentiment willing to fight back. Note that I'm referring to incidents perpetrated by federal agents. Local police, as the lead article depicts, are ramping up aggressive raids faster - with some, as noted, learning by law or lead that doing so is a bad idea.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      Nobody faced any repercussions because the feds never do but the next time that situation rolled around they handled it far more properly. You tend to see the same thing in police departments where officers get shot conducting unnecessary no-knocks. Of course it never makes more than the local news.
- dnautics 5y ago
  Hard disagree. For example, when doing a drug bust on a drugs kingpin the government won't bring out the bearcat. They very calmly arrange a meeting and work out a deal.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Exactly. When someone "matters" they tail them and then "stop them for a tail light out" or find some other pretext to whisk them off the street. Shock and awe shit is for keeping the plebes in line.
- Teever 5y ago
  As a non-American I've always wondered why the Walter Whites of America don't pull a Terminator on a police station after learning that their family members have been brutally executed by police officers. The last I've really heard of someone doing that in America was the guy who flew his plane into the IRS building.
  - kevingadd 5y ago
    There are fewer Walter Whites in this country than you might expect, and the nature of it means fewer still have the resources necessary to do something like that. Probably good news overall since most of them wouldn't pick targets we'd like them to pick.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    It isn't the Walter Whites and their families that are being brutalized. Walter was a multimillionaire and business owner (car wash), the police exist to protect his assets.
kelseyfrog 5y ago
There are material incentives to using them too which are baked into policy.The 1033 program requires that all equipment issued through it be used within one year of the date it is granted. In addition to being "fun toys" there are real structural incentives too.
- jey 5y ago
  > The 1033 program requires that all equipment issued through it be used within one year of the date it is granted. Wow, do you have a citation for that?
  - kelseyfrog 5y ago
    I checked against a Vox article before posting but neglected to cite because of perceived bias. I'll see if I can pull up an original source. Edit: States are apparently required to file an LESO operation plan. Here is an example from the Minnesota LESO operation plan Section III. C. > ... are required to utilize property within one year or schedule its return https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/hsem/homeland-security/Documents/leso-operation-plan.pdf https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/hsem/homeland-security/Document...
  - jrandm 5y ago
    The wording is probably something like "return after finished mission or within one year" because the equipment is loaned. I'd expect terms to vary wildly based on what the equipment is and who is receiving it. https://www.dla.mil/DispositionServices/Offers/Reutilization/LawEnforcement/Forms.aspx https://www.dla.mil/DispositionServices/Offers/Reutilization... has request forms.
    - kelseyfrog 5y ago
      As an aside, wording seems to be an important part of formulating these requests too. There was an interesting example used in coaching correct requests. Don't say you need blankets to keep detainees warm. Instead say you need blankets so that LEOs can provide detainees with warmth. Important apparently bc the property is primarily for the benefit of LEOs.

notreallyserio 5y ago

Further, despite 2A advocates claiming it is there to defend against tyranny, the police do not actually fear violent repercussions after the fact because it pretty much never happens. (Of course they do fear attack in the moment, when they're instigating.)

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
> the police do not actually fear violent repercussions after the fact because it pretty much never happens On the rare occurrences when it happens it does change how the agency involved approaches things in the future. See Waco vs Bundy ranch.
- MontagFTB 5y ago
  Do you mean the Branch Davidians?
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  What do you mean? No one faced any repercussions for the deaths of all those people. No one was fired. The officers in charge continued to have successful careers.
  - ctdonath 5y ago
    No government agency attempted anything like the Branch Davidian raid for the next 15 years.
    - notreallyserio 5y ago
      How often were they doing this before the Branch Davidian raid? I honestly don't know. If it was rare it's hard to infer anything from what they've done or not done since.
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        The Branch Dividian raid was supposed to be an easy political win for the feds "look at all these guns we've taken from these christian fundamentalist wackos" to distract from the Ruby Ridge incident a year prior that everyone hated them for.
        ctdonath 5y ago
        Of note, both lethal cases occurred over failure to submit 4 pages of registration and a $200 tax (NFA Form 1 or 4).
      - ctdonath 5y ago
        There was a clear trajectory toward increasing such aggressive raids. Quarter-century-old details escape me at the moment, but many were quite aware of such things ramping up. The Ruby Ridge incident was comparably violent but on a smaller scale, a high-profile violent raid occurring a year earlier. While there were no known punishments for agents/managers of the Branch Davidian incident, there was clearly a massive change in attitude toward using such tactics, lasting decades. The Elian Gonzales incident seemed a hesitating/reluctant resumption 15 years after, again avoided thereafter. The Bundy Ranch incident seemed ready to go there again, but was largely dissuaded by armed citizens. Of late, perceived rhetoric pointing toward resuming aggressive raids is increasing, but held back back per plurality of sentiment willing to fight back. Note that I'm referring to incidents perpetrated by federal agents. Local police, as the lead article depicts, are ramping up aggressive raids faster - with some, as noted, learning by law or lead that doing so is a bad idea.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Nobody faced any repercussions because the feds never do but the next time that situation rolled around they handled it far more properly. You tend to see the same thing in police departments where officers get shot conducting unnecessary no-knocks. Of course it never makes more than the local news.
dnautics 5y ago
Hard disagree. For example, when doing a drug bust on a drugs kingpin the government won't bring out the bearcat. They very calmly arrange a meeting and work out a deal.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Exactly. When someone "matters" they tail them and then "stop them for a tail light out" or find some other pretext to whisk them off the street. Shock and awe shit is for keeping the plebes in line.
Teever 5y ago
As a non-American I've always wondered why the Walter Whites of America don't pull a Terminator on a police station after learning that their family members have been brutally executed by police officers. The last I've really heard of someone doing that in America was the guy who flew his plane into the IRS building.
- kevingadd 5y ago
  There are fewer Walter Whites in this country than you might expect, and the nature of it means fewer still have the resources necessary to do something like that. Probably good news overall since most of them wouldn't pick targets we'd like them to pick.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  It isn't the Walter Whites and their families that are being brutalized. Walter was a multimillionaire and business owner (car wash), the police exist to protect his assets.

kelseyfrog 5y ago

There are material incentives to using them too which are baked into policy.The 1033 program requires that all equipment issued through it be used within one year of the date it is granted. In addition to being "fun toys" there are real structural incentives too.

jey 5y ago
> The 1033 program requires that all equipment issued through it be used within one year of the date it is granted. Wow, do you have a citation for that?
- kelseyfrog 5y ago
  I checked against a Vox article before posting but neglected to cite because of perceived bias. I'll see if I can pull up an original source. Edit: States are apparently required to file an LESO operation plan. Here is an example from the Minnesota LESO operation plan Section III. C. > ... are required to utilize property within one year or schedule its return https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/hsem/homeland-security/Documents/leso-operation-plan.pdf https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/hsem/homeland-security/Document...
- jrandm 5y ago
  The wording is probably something like "return after finished mission or within one year" because the equipment is loaned. I'd expect terms to vary wildly based on what the equipment is and who is receiving it. https://www.dla.mil/DispositionServices/Offers/Reutilization/LawEnforcement/Forms.aspx https://www.dla.mil/DispositionServices/Offers/Reutilization... has request forms.
  - kelseyfrog 5y ago
    As an aside, wording seems to be an important part of formulating these requests too. There was an interesting example used in coaching correct requests. Don't say you need blankets to keep detainees warm. Instead say you need blankets so that LEOs can provide detainees with warmth. Important apparently bc the property is primarily for the benefit of LEOs.