6 ms·

Starlink satalites know where they are serving, geographically. Wouldn't they just comply with local laws or risk having their ability to do business in that re

by er4hn 5y ago

Starlink satalites know where they are serving, geographically. Wouldn't they just comply with local laws or risk having their ability to do business in that region disrupted?

smoldesu 5y ago
Presumably, but that hasn't worked out so well in countries like India. Adding insult to injury (or potentially comedy), the Indian government doesn't have an easy way to hunt down the existing Starlink users, so they're merely asking citizens not to buy them until they can strongarm Starlink into becoming a registered internet provider in India.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Strange. Currently starlink does not have sat to sat meshing yet. That means that the ground segment must be in view of the same sat while serving. India is pretty big. So they could just ban SpaceX from operating ground stations and that should stop them. Except in the border areas where they could be painted by ground stations from neighbouring countries. But I'm not sure how big the cells are. It could be that they are as big as to cover most of India? Doubt it though. But yeah it would be great if we had a truly independent internet provider for an affordable price.
- ummonk 5y ago
  What are you talking about? Starlink isn’t operating in India yet - why would the government need to hunt down anyone? And if Starlink did start broadcasting in Indian airwaves without a permit (not really possible since they’d need a ground station but assume they place some ground stations around India’s borders), it would be a good opportunity for India to test its anti satellite weaponry.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    > What are you talking about? Starlink isn’t operating in India yet - why would the government need to hunt down anyone? > Reuters states that since Starlink officially registered its business in India on November 1st, it has already seen over 5,000 preorders in the country [0] That's from The Verge's article a few days ago. > And if Starlink did start broadcasting in Indian airwaves without a permit (not really possible since they’d need a ground station but assume they place some ground stations around India’s borders) They don't need to. It could just as easily operate from across the border, the ground station I'm connected to is in Canada even though I live in the United States. > it would be a good opportunity for India to test its anti satellite weaponry. Maybe if they had a geostationary satellite, sure. Starlink is a LEO constellation though, so if they took down a satellite this weekend, SpaceX would launch 60 more by next Saturday (and service wouldn't be interrupted since there's considerable redundancy built into the system). Unless India intends to take out a few hundred satellites and be responsible for potentially catastrophic space debris, I think it wouldn't be a good opportunity for them to test their anti-satellite weaponry. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/27/22804830/starlink-india-not-to-subscribe-license https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/27/22804830/starlink-india-...
    - 14 5y ago
      I believe it has registered its business in India but has yet to receive licensing. So taking preorders does not mean they sent those people any equipment just that they are taking orders so when allowed to they can ship equipment to those people.
      - MertsA 5y ago
        They've also already received flak from the Indian government over taking preorders before they're licensed to provide service.
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      How can starlink operate without a ground station in India? Every receiver needs to act as a ground station or you cannot send traffic. If the receivers are unlicensed, running one would be a legal risk.
    - ummonk 5y ago
      They’re taking preorders not sending out receivers and providing internet service. As to the economics of anti-satellite warfare, you only have to destroy a small number of satellites to create a gap in coverage that will periodically sweep across the whole globe.
oneplane 5y ago
That is exactly how it currently works, including pre-starlink satellite internet. There was an example about starlink pre-sales in India happening while they don't have a license to operate there yet and therefore can't deliver even if it was operational.
- Terry_Roll 5y ago
  You mean this? https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/elon-musk-starlink-internet-service-555294.html https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/elon-musk-starlink-int... "Govt Asks Indians Not To Subscribe To Elon Musk-owned Internet Service Starlink" StarLink is not licenced for use in India yet, but do you think the US mil or any other Nato mil will want some control over military coup's like when the military rolled into (Burma) Myanmar earlier this year and the internet was shut down? Not the only country to shutdown the internet or censor it when thinking about the Great Firewall of China either. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-55901774 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-55901774 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Myanmar#Re-censorship_after_the_2021_coup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Myanmar#Re-censors...
- stephen_g 5y ago
  I think India has pretty strong bans over (at least foreign) satellite access. I worked at a place that made satellite equipment for various networks, including Inmarsat Global Xpress (GX). We'd sometimes get calls from customers when they were heading to ports in India because their internet would just stop working a few km off the coast. It was one of the only places in the service area (most of the world, minus near the poles) that I know of that Inmarsat blocked out service. (There was a way to override the GPS on the terminal to make it report to the network that you were somewhere else, but we tried not to tell customers about that - or Inmarsat obviously!)
politician 5y ago
Countries require satellite operators to obtain licenses “to land signals” in their territory. The laws treat incident EM radiation as a landing as insane as that sounds.
- mr_toad 5y ago
  Starlink in its current form needs local base stations to operate efficiently. So as a practical matter they need local licenses.
- Terry_Roll 5y ago
  Which sounds great in practice, but do you know why the military uses those giant golf ball radomes? Its to hide where a satellite is pointing and thus where a satellite is in space. [1] So another way to find out where a satellite is pointing would be to detect the transmissions its receiving or "landing" right? So then the military wouldnt need these radomes as anyone near by could detect the overlapping footprint of the signal hitting the ground, unless its no more accurate than using something we can find in mediaportal to work out signal strength and quality. [1] So then the ground could detect where the satellite is, which renders the use of the radomes somewhat unnecessary. And then there is the fact Space has its own jurisdiction. Now I do know HP were working as a Mil contractor in the 90's developing line of sight laser communication for the battlefield namely because it used the property of light to highlight eavesdropping, whether that has developed enough to be an uplink to satellites I dont know, but that is a lot harder to detect for obvious reasons and then the law would seem to be rather ineffective if light is being used to land signals sometime in the future. Anyway off topic so no more from me on this deviation. [1] https://media.defense.gov/2016/Sep/16/2001635620/-1/-1/0/160914-F-LY873-023.JPG https://media.defense.gov/2016/Sep/16/2001635620/-1/-1/0/160... [2] https://www.team-mediaportal.com/wiki/display/MediaPortal1/Scan+DVB-S?preview=/10454038/10458571/dvbs-scan-channelscan1.png https://www.team-mediaportal.com/wiki/display/MediaPortal1/S...
  - Eelongate 5y ago
    > Which sounds great in practice, but do you know why the military uses those giant golf ball radomes? Its to hide where a satellite is pointing and thus where a satellite is in space. [1] I'm unconvinced of that. Classified satellites are routinely tracked and sometimes even photographed by amateur astronomers; surely the peer competitors of governments can do better. I suspect these domes are primarily intended to conceal which satellite is being talked to.

by er4hn 5y ago

Starlink satalites know where they are serving, geographically. Wouldn't they just comply with local laws or risk having their ability to do business in that region disrupted?

smoldesu 5y ago

Presumably, but that hasn't worked out so well in countries like India. Adding insult to injury (or potentially comedy), the Indian government doesn't have an easy way to hunt down the existing Starlink users, so they're merely asking citizens not to buy them until they can strongarm Starlink into becoming a registered internet provider in India.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
Strange. Currently starlink does not have sat to sat meshing yet. That means that the ground segment must be in view of the same sat while serving. India is pretty big. So they could just ban SpaceX from operating ground stations and that should stop them. Except in the border areas where they could be painted by ground stations from neighbouring countries. But I'm not sure how big the cells are. It could be that they are as big as to cover most of India? Doubt it though. But yeah it would be great if we had a truly independent internet provider for an affordable price.
ummonk 5y ago
What are you talking about? Starlink isn’t operating in India yet - why would the government need to hunt down anyone? And if Starlink did start broadcasting in Indian airwaves without a permit (not really possible since they’d need a ground station but assume they place some ground stations around India’s borders), it would be a good opportunity for India to test its anti satellite weaponry.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  > What are you talking about? Starlink isn’t operating in India yet - why would the government need to hunt down anyone? > Reuters states that since Starlink officially registered its business in India on November 1st, it has already seen over 5,000 preorders in the country [0] That's from The Verge's article a few days ago. > And if Starlink did start broadcasting in Indian airwaves without a permit (not really possible since they’d need a ground station but assume they place some ground stations around India’s borders) They don't need to. It could just as easily operate from across the border, the ground station I'm connected to is in Canada even though I live in the United States. > it would be a good opportunity for India to test its anti satellite weaponry. Maybe if they had a geostationary satellite, sure. Starlink is a LEO constellation though, so if they took down a satellite this weekend, SpaceX would launch 60 more by next Saturday (and service wouldn't be interrupted since there's considerable redundancy built into the system). Unless India intends to take out a few hundred satellites and be responsible for potentially catastrophic space debris, I think it wouldn't be a good opportunity for them to test their anti-satellite weaponry. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/27/22804830/starlink-india-not-to-subscribe-license https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/27/22804830/starlink-india-...
  - 14 5y ago
    I believe it has registered its business in India but has yet to receive licensing. So taking preorders does not mean they sent those people any equipment just that they are taking orders so when allowed to they can ship equipment to those people.
    - MertsA 5y ago
      They've also already received flak from the Indian government over taking preorders before they're licensed to provide service.
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    How can starlink operate without a ground station in India? Every receiver needs to act as a ground station or you cannot send traffic. If the receivers are unlicensed, running one would be a legal risk.
  - ummonk 5y ago
    They’re taking preorders not sending out receivers and providing internet service. As to the economics of anti-satellite warfare, you only have to destroy a small number of satellites to create a gap in coverage that will periodically sweep across the whole globe.

oneplane 5y ago

That is exactly how it currently works, including pre-starlink satellite internet. There was an example about starlink pre-sales in India happening while they don't have a license to operate there yet and therefore can't deliver even if it was operational.

Terry_Roll 5y ago
You mean this? https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/elon-musk-starlink-internet-service-555294.html https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/elon-musk-starlink-int... "Govt Asks Indians Not To Subscribe To Elon Musk-owned Internet Service Starlink" StarLink is not licenced for use in India yet, but do you think the US mil or any other Nato mil will want some control over military coup's like when the military rolled into (Burma) Myanmar earlier this year and the internet was shut down? Not the only country to shutdown the internet or censor it when thinking about the Great Firewall of China either. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-55901774 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-55901774 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Myanmar#Re-censorship_after_the_2021_coup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Myanmar#Re-censors...
stephen_g 5y ago
I think India has pretty strong bans over (at least foreign) satellite access. I worked at a place that made satellite equipment for various networks, including Inmarsat Global Xpress (GX). We'd sometimes get calls from customers when they were heading to ports in India because their internet would just stop working a few km off the coast. It was one of the only places in the service area (most of the world, minus near the poles) that I know of that Inmarsat blocked out service. (There was a way to override the GPS on the terminal to make it report to the network that you were somewhere else, but we tried not to tell customers about that - or Inmarsat obviously!)

politician 5y ago

Countries require satellite operators to obtain licenses “to land signals” in their territory. The laws treat incident EM radiation as a landing as insane as that sounds.

mr_toad 5y ago
Starlink in its current form needs local base stations to operate efficiently. So as a practical matter they need local licenses.
Terry_Roll 5y ago
Which sounds great in practice, but do you know why the military uses those giant golf ball radomes? Its to hide where a satellite is pointing and thus where a satellite is in space. [1] So another way to find out where a satellite is pointing would be to detect the transmissions its receiving or "landing" right? So then the military wouldnt need these radomes as anyone near by could detect the overlapping footprint of the signal hitting the ground, unless its no more accurate than using something we can find in mediaportal to work out signal strength and quality. [1] So then the ground could detect where the satellite is, which renders the use of the radomes somewhat unnecessary. And then there is the fact Space has its own jurisdiction. Now I do know HP were working as a Mil contractor in the 90's developing line of sight laser communication for the battlefield namely because it used the property of light to highlight eavesdropping, whether that has developed enough to be an uplink to satellites I dont know, but that is a lot harder to detect for obvious reasons and then the law would seem to be rather ineffective if light is being used to land signals sometime in the future. Anyway off topic so no more from me on this deviation. [1] https://media.defense.gov/2016/Sep/16/2001635620/-1/-1/0/160914-F-LY873-023.JPG https://media.defense.gov/2016/Sep/16/2001635620/-1/-1/0/160... [2] https://www.team-mediaportal.com/wiki/display/MediaPortal1/Scan+DVB-S?preview=/10454038/10458571/dvbs-scan-channelscan1.png https://www.team-mediaportal.com/wiki/display/MediaPortal1/S...
- Eelongate 5y ago
  > Which sounds great in practice, but do you know why the military uses those giant golf ball radomes? Its to hide where a satellite is pointing and thus where a satellite is in space. [1] I'm unconvinced of that. Classified satellites are routinely tracked and sometimes even photographed by amateur astronomers; surely the peer competitors of governments can do better. I suspect these domes are primarily intended to conceal which satellite is being talked to.