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I've always thought the problem with private prisons is that incentives are misaligned. Because the prison companies get paid by the prisoner their incentive i

I've always thought the problem with private prisons is that incentives are misaligned. Because the prison companies get paid by the prisoner their incentive is to get more prisoners. Recidivism is like repeat business for them. If we realigned incentives I think private prisons would make much more sense. For example, what if private prisons were paid a portion of the tax revenue their released prisoners produced? e.g. Inmate X is released, stays out of prison, gets a good job and the private prison he graduated from gets an annual payment of, say, half X's tax revenue so long as he stays out of trouble. In this model private prisons would be places that focused on getting prisoners to rehabilitate, learn in demand skills, get good jobs, and stay out of prisons in the future. Investors stack the prisons with the staff and resources to produce big profits in the future. Provided recidivism does decrease governments will likely make a profit on it. Prisoners will get better lives out of the deal. Seems like there is potential for wins all around.

savingsPossible 5y ago
> what if private prisons were paid a portion of the tax revenue their released prisoners produced? That is a wonderful idea! However... what is the typical tax amount a, say, mc donald's cachier is expected to pay? The number might be just to low... https://bizfluent.com/info-7890463-tax-rates-minimum-wage.html https://bizfluent.com/info-7890463-tax-rates-minimum-wage.ht... (apparently, around 2000 US per year...) also, an inmate seems to cost around 33k a year to keep imprisoned
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  Could be a "whichever is greater" where one choice is the difference between what the government would expect to pay per year for a former convict all up and what they do pay for a particular convict, and the other choice is the tax revenue share.
- SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
  This gives the prison operators an incentive to train the incarcerated for higher paying jobs
seoaeu 5y ago
Or, we could look at what people who've thought about this for a long time suggest: abolish private prisons. Recidivism isn't the only way that incentives are misaligned. Everything from cutting corners on food safety to lobbying for stricter prison sentences results in bad outcomes.
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  I'm not an expert, but my intuition is that public prisons aren't too much better. I think a prison that was focused on rehabilitation and education (so they could collect additional future revenue) would naturally provide nutrition and safety to inmates. Healthy graduates are more likely to go on to earn than malnourished trauma victims. Of course the system would require calibration. We can't have the private prisons killing off inmates they expect would be problematic or low earners. This is just a basic concept not a detailed plan. My point is that I don't think there's anything wrong with private prisons. We just need to make sure we have the right incentives and regulations.
  - seoaeu 5y ago
    > I'm not an expert, but my intuition... Do you see how this might not be received well? You admit to not being an expert and not basing your opinion on evidence, and then jump in with supporting something anyway. A quick google search picks up a bunch of results suggesting that private prisons are in fact meaningfully worse.
    - mechanical_bear 5y ago
      You have described the majority of internet commenting, but even here on HN where experts in one field opine on others.
    - ALittleLight 5y ago
      To me this comes across as you having an opposition to private prisons and therefore a compulsion to insist that others who don't share your opinions not contradict them. Are you an expert in prisons (and a "quick google search" doesn't count)? If not, why is it okay for you to share opinion as if it were some known fact but not okay for me to share mine? Speaking of quick Google searches though, lets do one. My top three results are: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/how-create-more-humane-private-prisons https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/how-... >But private prisons have turned out to be neither better nor cheaper. They have about the same recidivism rates as their government-run counterparts — nearly 40 percent. And the Government Accountability Office has concluded time and again that there is simply no evidence that private prisons are more cost-effective than public prisons. Which I sum up as: recidivism is similar between public and private prisons. https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/recidivism-analysis-public-and-private-state-prison-releases https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/recidivi... >Results of multivariate statistical analyses indicated no significant differences in recidivism rates were discovered for adult males and youthful male offenders released from private versus public prisons, which is consistent with previous research on Florida offenders I take that as meaning recidivism is similar. https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2017/may/5/report-says-private-prison-companies-increase-recidivism/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2017/may/5/report-says-... >Several studies have found that incarceration in private prisons increases the risk of recidivism by almost 20 percent. [See: PLN, Feb. 2014, p.14; Dec. 2009, p.11]. Other research has determined that violence in private prisons is significantly higher than in government-run facilities, often due to understaffing. Lower numbers of staff in private facilities, of course, increases the profit margin for private prison operators. I take that as comparisons are complicated by confounding factors (e.g. private prisons more likely to be in areas where visitation is difficult and visitation is a predictor of violence in prison which is a predictor of recidivism). In part because of the confounding factors it is hard to exactly say and studies show different things as regards recidivism. I hope you can see why your comment might not be received well. You make it seem like there is some consensus on a matter that is actually debated. Further, you conflate the current reality, where private prisons have misaligned incentives, with what I'm proposing, which is aligning their incentives with society. If private prisons now were substantially worse than public prisons, and I haven't seen any evidence to that point, then that would be an argument in favor of aligning their incentives, not against it. The pattern of our conversation is: I have an idea which I share as a casual comment on a forum. You have a vague reference to "experts" who resoundingly disagree with my idea. Only, you can't cite those experts and when I follow your recommended google search I discover that the experts do no such thing.

savingsPossible 5y ago

> what if private prisons were paid a portion of the tax revenue their released prisoners produced? That is a wonderful idea! However... what is the typical tax amount a, say, mc donald's cachier is expected to pay? The number might be just to low... https://bizfluent.com/info-7890463-tax-rates-minimum-wage.html https://bizfluent.com/info-7890463-tax-rates-minimum-wage.ht... (apparently, around 2000 US per year...) also, an inmate seems to cost around 33k a year to keep imprisoned

ALittleLight 5y ago
Could be a "whichever is greater" where one choice is the difference between what the government would expect to pay per year for a former convict all up and what they do pay for a particular convict, and the other choice is the tax revenue share.
SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
This gives the prison operators an incentive to train the incarcerated for higher paying jobs

seoaeu 5y ago

Or, we could look at what people who've thought about this for a long time suggest: abolish private prisons. Recidivism isn't the only way that incentives are misaligned. Everything from cutting corners on food safety to lobbying for stricter prison sentences results in bad outcomes.

ALittleLight 5y ago
I'm not an expert, but my intuition is that public prisons aren't too much better. I think a prison that was focused on rehabilitation and education (so they could collect additional future revenue) would naturally provide nutrition and safety to inmates. Healthy graduates are more likely to go on to earn than malnourished trauma victims. Of course the system would require calibration. We can't have the private prisons killing off inmates they expect would be problematic or low earners. This is just a basic concept not a detailed plan. My point is that I don't think there's anything wrong with private prisons. We just need to make sure we have the right incentives and regulations.
- seoaeu 5y ago
  > I'm not an expert, but my intuition... Do you see how this might not be received well? You admit to not being an expert and not basing your opinion on evidence, and then jump in with supporting something anyway. A quick google search picks up a bunch of results suggesting that private prisons are in fact meaningfully worse.
  - mechanical_bear 5y ago
    You have described the majority of internet commenting, but even here on HN where experts in one field opine on others.
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    To me this comes across as you having an opposition to private prisons and therefore a compulsion to insist that others who don't share your opinions not contradict them. Are you an expert in prisons (and a "quick google search" doesn't count)? If not, why is it okay for you to share opinion as if it were some known fact but not okay for me to share mine? Speaking of quick Google searches though, lets do one. My top three results are: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/how-create-more-humane-private-prisons https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/how-... >But private prisons have turned out to be neither better nor cheaper. They have about the same recidivism rates as their government-run counterparts — nearly 40 percent. And the Government Accountability Office has concluded time and again that there is simply no evidence that private prisons are more cost-effective than public prisons. Which I sum up as: recidivism is similar between public and private prisons. https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/recidivism-analysis-public-and-private-state-prison-releases https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/recidivi... >Results of multivariate statistical analyses indicated no significant differences in recidivism rates were discovered for adult males and youthful male offenders released from private versus public prisons, which is consistent with previous research on Florida offenders I take that as meaning recidivism is similar. https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2017/may/5/report-says-private-prison-companies-increase-recidivism/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2017/may/5/report-says-... >Several studies have found that incarceration in private prisons increases the risk of recidivism by almost 20 percent. [See: PLN, Feb. 2014, p.14; Dec. 2009, p.11]. Other research has determined that violence in private prisons is significantly higher than in government-run facilities, often due to understaffing. Lower numbers of staff in private facilities, of course, increases the profit margin for private prison operators. I take that as comparisons are complicated by confounding factors (e.g. private prisons more likely to be in areas where visitation is difficult and visitation is a predictor of violence in prison which is a predictor of recidivism). In part because of the confounding factors it is hard to exactly say and studies show different things as regards recidivism. I hope you can see why your comment might not be received well. You make it seem like there is some consensus on a matter that is actually debated. Further, you conflate the current reality, where private prisons have misaligned incentives, with what I'm proposing, which is aligning their incentives with society. If private prisons now were substantially worse than public prisons, and I haven't seen any evidence to that point, then that would be an argument in favor of aligning their incentives, not against it. The pattern of our conversation is: I have an idea which I share as a casual comment on a forum. You have a vague reference to "experts" who resoundingly disagree with my idea. Only, you can't cite those experts and when I follow your recommended google search I discover that the experts do no such thing.