4 ms·

> It's a continuation of slavery by other means. This is the part that shocks me. With nearly universal agreement that slavery is bad, how does the approximate

> It's a continuation of slavery by other means. This is the part that shocks me. With nearly universal agreement that slavery is bad, how does the approximate equivalent continue?

Avshalom 5y ago
Well the reality is that we have nearly universal agreement to say that slavery is bad. That's not the same thing.
72736379 5y ago
The way the 13th amendment is written is how: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction". This is why penal labor is explicitly allowed, and why this population is milked for money (re: charging by the minute to read a free book available under public domain).
- kingcharles 5y ago
  Yes. There are now more black people legally owned as slaves than there were in the 1800s. It's just that the government owns them all now. The USA didn't abolish slavery it just made it illegal for private corporations to own them. Of course, the private corporations now rent them from the government.
  - maerF0x0 5y ago
    Is it possible/optional that companies could employee these inmates in a non-abusive way? eg; could a company opt to pay them minimum wage or educational benefits?
    - shagie 5y ago
      Yes. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/business/economy/labor-market-inmates.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/business/economy/labor-ma... > Nearly every weekday morning for much of last year, Mr. Forseth would board a van at the minimum-security prison outside Madison, Wis., and ride to Stoughton Trailers, where he and more than a dozen other inmates earned $14 an hour wiring taillights and building sidewalls for the company’s line of semitrailers. > After he was released, Mr. Forseth kept right on working at Stoughton. But instead of riding in the prison van, he drives to work in the 2015 Ford Fusion he bought with the money he saved while incarcerated. > Work-release programs have often been criticized for exploiting inmates by forcing them to work grueling jobs for pay that is often well below minimum wage. But the Wisconsin program is voluntary, and inmates are paid market wages. State officials say the program gives inmates a chance to build up some savings, learn vocational skills and prepare for life after prison.
      - maerF0x0 5y ago
        I would donate to a charity, if such one existed, that just helped give at least minimum wage (ideally a living wage) for a social good cause. Any leads on such a thing? I've long thought about the concept of guaranteed employment, like basically if people charitably said "look, if you cant find a job, I'll give you one doing a social good, like sweeping this street or chopping onions at a local foodbank" ...
        shagie 5y ago
        The classic ones that I'm familiar with are bakeries. For example - https://justdane.org/just-bakery/ https://justdane.org/just-bakery/ A recent article from NPR https://www.npr.org/2021/11/23/1056856357/former-inmates-are-cooking-up-some-of-phillys-best-pizza https://www.npr.org/2021/11/23/1056856357/former-inmates-are... Another bakery from a bit ago - https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/04/15/469942932/this-bakery-offers-a-second-chance-for-women-after-prison https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/04/15/469942932/th... One that is more on the farming skills - https://www.npr.org/2021/09/17/1037594879/this-prison-teaches-inmates-how-to-grow-their-own-food https://www.npr.org/2021/09/17/1037594879/this-prison-teache... and another one - https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/wisconsin/2017/08/07/wisconsin-prison-dairy-farms-turn-out-1st-class-inmate-graduates/508505001/ https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/wisconsin/2017/08/... and then for youth https://doc.wi.gov/Pages/AboutDOC/JuvenileCorrections/GrowAcademy.aspx https://doc.wi.gov/Pages/AboutDOC/JuvenileCorrections/GrowAc... -- though these are more about teaching while incarcerated rather than jobs once they're out. Even aside from the "do they accept charity or donation" the thing to do is to look at having your place of employment to say... get bagels from Just Bakery or have get pizza from Down North Pizza to continue to support the community and the people working at such jobs. I'd also check with the state DWD (or equivalent) - Department of Workforce Development. They're often part of the set of departments that work to reduce recidivism and may have suggestions for either "these companies employ ex-convicts" so that you can help by patronizing them along with "these organizations help with reentry" - and that would be an opportunity for donations. For that example - https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/press/2019/190403_new_hope_frostman.htm https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/press/2019/190403_new_hope_frostma... and https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/press/210729-reecc-job-center.htm https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/press/210729-reecc-job-center.htm
chongli 5y ago
The US has a culture of retribution [1] against convicts. This has led to the election of many politicians, prosecutors, and the like who campaign on a "tough on crime" platform [2]. In spite of what the wikipedia article on retributive justice says, I believe schadenfreude is a component of this. People see stories in the news about violent crimes and they often gather outside courtrooms to cheer when harsh sentences are handed down, including the death penalty. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retributive_justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retributive_justice [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio
_moof 5y ago
They're not slaves, they're prisoners with jobs. /s Basically when it became no longer tenable to deny the fundamental humanity of an enslaved person, we found a way to deprive them of their humanity by criminalizing them. So now we don't have to feel bad for abusing them because they deserve it. It's not slavery, see, it's justice. Or so the argument goes. It's disgusting.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

> It's a continuation of slavery by other means. This is the part that shocks me. With nearly universal agreement that slavery is bad, how does the approximate equivalent continue?

Avshalom 5y ago

Well the reality is that we have nearly universal agreement to say that slavery is bad. That's not the same thing.

72736379 5y ago

The way the 13th amendment is written is how: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction". This is why penal labor is explicitly allowed, and why this population is milked for money (re: charging by the minute to read a free book available under public domain).

kingcharles 5y ago
Yes. There are now more black people legally owned as slaves than there were in the 1800s. It's just that the government owns them all now. The USA didn't abolish slavery it just made it illegal for private corporations to own them. Of course, the private corporations now rent them from the government.
- maerF0x0 5y ago
  Is it possible/optional that companies could employee these inmates in a non-abusive way? eg; could a company opt to pay them minimum wage or educational benefits?
  - shagie 5y ago
    Yes. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/business/economy/labor-market-inmates.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/business/economy/labor-ma... > Nearly every weekday morning for much of last year, Mr. Forseth would board a van at the minimum-security prison outside Madison, Wis., and ride to Stoughton Trailers, where he and more than a dozen other inmates earned $14 an hour wiring taillights and building sidewalls for the company’s line of semitrailers. > After he was released, Mr. Forseth kept right on working at Stoughton. But instead of riding in the prison van, he drives to work in the 2015 Ford Fusion he bought with the money he saved while incarcerated. > Work-release programs have often been criticized for exploiting inmates by forcing them to work grueling jobs for pay that is often well below minimum wage. But the Wisconsin program is voluntary, and inmates are paid market wages. State officials say the program gives inmates a chance to build up some savings, learn vocational skills and prepare for life after prison.
    - maerF0x0 5y ago
      I would donate to a charity, if such one existed, that just helped give at least minimum wage (ideally a living wage) for a social good cause. Any leads on such a thing? I've long thought about the concept of guaranteed employment, like basically if people charitably said "look, if you cant find a job, I'll give you one doing a social good, like sweeping this street or chopping onions at a local foodbank" ...
      - shagie 5y ago
        The classic ones that I'm familiar with are bakeries. For example - https://justdane.org/just-bakery/ https://justdane.org/just-bakery/ A recent article from NPR https://www.npr.org/2021/11/23/1056856357/former-inmates-are-cooking-up-some-of-phillys-best-pizza https://www.npr.org/2021/11/23/1056856357/former-inmates-are... Another bakery from a bit ago - https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/04/15/469942932/this-bakery-offers-a-second-chance-for-women-after-prison https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/04/15/469942932/th... One that is more on the farming skills - https://www.npr.org/2021/09/17/1037594879/this-prison-teaches-inmates-how-to-grow-their-own-food https://www.npr.org/2021/09/17/1037594879/this-prison-teache... and another one - https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/wisconsin/2017/08/07/wisconsin-prison-dairy-farms-turn-out-1st-class-inmate-graduates/508505001/ https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/wisconsin/2017/08/... and then for youth https://doc.wi.gov/Pages/AboutDOC/JuvenileCorrections/GrowAcademy.aspx https://doc.wi.gov/Pages/AboutDOC/JuvenileCorrections/GrowAc... -- though these are more about teaching while incarcerated rather than jobs once they're out. Even aside from the "do they accept charity or donation" the thing to do is to look at having your place of employment to say... get bagels from Just Bakery or have get pizza from Down North Pizza to continue to support the community and the people working at such jobs. I'd also check with the state DWD (or equivalent) - Department of Workforce Development. They're often part of the set of departments that work to reduce recidivism and may have suggestions for either "these companies employ ex-convicts" so that you can help by patronizing them along with "these organizations help with reentry" - and that would be an opportunity for donations. For that example - https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/press/2019/190403_new_hope_frostman.htm https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/press/2019/190403_new_hope_frostma... and https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/press/210729-reecc-job-center.htm https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/press/210729-reecc-job-center.htm

chongli 5y ago

The US has a culture of retribution [1] against convicts. This has led to the election of many politicians, prosecutors, and the like who campaign on a "tough on crime" platform [2]. In spite of what the wikipedia article on retributive justice says, I believe schadenfreude is a component of this. People see stories in the news about violent crimes and they often gather outside courtrooms to cheer when harsh sentences are handed down, including the death penalty. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retributive_justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retributive_justice [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

_moof 5y ago

They're not slaves, they're prisoners with jobs. /s Basically when it became no longer tenable to deny the fundamental humanity of an enslaved person, we found a way to deprive them of their humanity by criminalizing them. So now we don't have to feel bad for abusing them because they deserve it. It's not slavery, see, it's justice. Or so the argument goes. It's disgusting.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]