3 ms·

Covid: Greece to fine over-60s who refuse Covid-19 vaccine

11 points by version_five 5y ago

version_five 5y ago
I posted this because although I disagree with it, I think this is a much more preferable method than any kind of vaccine passport system that turns businesses into government agents and creates a group of second class citizens. The latter approach is more popular politically because it automatically creates an external group onto which people can project their fear and anger, but its completely out of line with any notion of liberal democratic values, even "crisis" values. An approach like in the article that makes it between an individual and the government directly is much more reasonable - private businesses are left out of it, and a person's societal obligations are verified and enforced by government directly. Sort of like conscription or something, you wouldn't expect businesses to check if you're a draft dodger before they let you in.
- thatfrenchguy 5y ago
  > vaccine passport system that turns businesses into government agents Businesses are government agents in the US, they enforce drinking laws that require you to show id, and somehow no-one in the US seems to have an issue with this.
  - errantmind 5y ago
    Plenty of people have a problem with this and do not enforce the law as a result. They just don't advertise it because it would 'look bad'. It isn't like it is hard to obtain alcohol or just about any other illicit substance.
- aakresearch 5y ago
  This, very much. Make it a private matter between a citizen and a government. Better yet, don't call it a fine, call it a conscientious alternative. Like, a mandatory community service instead of a draft - a provision every humane conscription law should allow. There is significant number of people for whom it is a very deep, primal issue, issue of integrity, of conscience, to the point of inability to leave with oneself after submitting to such request. Some napkin math: by UK stats there was ~300000 positive cases in the last 7 days; at the same time little over 5000 hospital admissions. So, the probability to occupy the proverbial bed is ~1.7%. The probability to catch covid within a year is not 100% either, and not even 50%, but let's assume it is 100%. Average cost of hospital stay - dunno, $100 grand? $200? $300? Let someone pay a 1.7% of this plus some on top once and call it settled. Make it a one-off tax surcharge. Heck, make it even annual surcharge, conditional on pandemic duration and vaccination status. But stop moralizing and dividing the society. People won't be happy with it, but they won't be as angry or suicidal, they won't feel desperate and cornered.

11 points by version_five 5y ago

I posted this because although I disagree with it, I think this is a much more preferable method than any kind of vaccine passport system that turns businesses into government agents and creates a group of second class citizens. The latter approach is more popular politically because it automatically creates an external group onto which people can project their fear and anger, but its completely out of line with any notion of liberal democratic values, even "crisis" values. An approach like in the article that makes it between an individual and the government directly is much more reasonable - private businesses are left out of it, and a person's societal obligations are verified and enforced by government directly. Sort of like conscription or something, you wouldn't expect businesses to check if you're a draft dodger before they let you in.

thatfrenchguy 5y ago
> vaccine passport system that turns businesses into government agents Businesses are government agents in the US, they enforce drinking laws that require you to show id, and somehow no-one in the US seems to have an issue with this.
- errantmind 5y ago
  Plenty of people have a problem with this and do not enforce the law as a result. They just don't advertise it because it would 'look bad'. It isn't like it is hard to obtain alcohol or just about any other illicit substance.
aakresearch 5y ago
This, very much. Make it a private matter between a citizen and a government. Better yet, don't call it a fine, call it a conscientious alternative. Like, a mandatory community service instead of a draft - a provision every humane conscription law should allow. There is significant number of people for whom it is a very deep, primal issue, issue of integrity, of conscience, to the point of inability to leave with oneself after submitting to such request. Some napkin math: by UK stats there was ~300000 positive cases in the last 7 days; at the same time little over 5000 hospital admissions. So, the probability to occupy the proverbial bed is ~1.7%. The probability to catch covid within a year is not 100% either, and not even 50%, but let's assume it is 100%. Average cost of hospital stay - dunno, $100 grand? $200? $300? Let someone pay a 1.7% of this plus some on top once and call it settled. Make it a one-off tax surcharge. Heck, make it even annual surcharge, conditional on pandemic duration and vaccination status. But stop moralizing and dividing the society. People won't be happy with it, but they won't be as angry or suicidal, they won't feel desperate and cornered.