3 ms·

By modern standards, we view their actions as morally wrong. Owning slaves is morally wrong. Only permitting white males to vote is morally wrong. Yet, we also

By modern standards, we view their actions as morally wrong. Owning slaves is morally wrong. Only permitting white males to vote is morally wrong. Yet, we also forget that the world then was not like the world today. Who received comprehensive education back then, the kind needed to run states and countries? Typically, the rich, and within that, men. The inequalities of the world in those times were immense and could not be mended in even one generation. Liberal countries such as USA fought against the powerful forces of British imperialism, with the promise of a better tomorrow for all citizens, however long that takes. >The constitution itself was a compromise over slavery If you've ever tried to make significant change in an organization of any type and size (including government), you MUST take inertia into account. What you claim was willful choice, I claim was inertia. Slavery was not banned in the Constitution because a few Southern states would have refused to sign it, their claim being such action would render economic devastation. The very day it became possible, the importation of slaves was federally prohibited by Jefferson. As slavery became increasingly restricted by the federal, the southern states dug in their heels and refused to change their labor practices. The eventual Civil War was one of economics, with the general population heavily propagandized by those wealthy slaveowners wanting to preserve their livelihood. >diffuse lower class energy via grants of land in westward expansion Your analysis is overly simplistic. Those grants of land to lower-class citizens ensured the new Western lands would be worked by citizens. It was great opportunity many lower-class citizens jumped on, especially those who didn't own land before. By relocating to a smaller community, a lower-class citizen became immediately more influential in their local community by numbers alone. Yes, it diffuses that energy, but that's not inherently bad. In different terms, I see that decentralization as an intentional, value-adding feature, not an unintentional bug.

tehjoker 5y ago
> Yet, we also forget that the world then was not like the world today. False. Contemporary preachers were regularly commenting that slavers were going to hell. They didn't have a different morality, just different economic incentives (i.e. they thought they could get away with it). Luminaries such as Jefferson even expressed that slavery was wrong, though he didn't actually free his slaves during his lifetime. Show respect for people of the past, they weren't stupid. It wasn't even that far into the future that the slavery abolition movement got going in other countries such as the UK. > Those grants of land to lower-class citizens ensured the new Western lands would be worked by citizens. The land was Native American land and this was only achieved via genocidal means.
- waterheater 5y ago
  >They didn't have a different morality, just different economic incentives (i.e. they thought they could get away with it). Exactly, slavery was a significant economic factor in the world back then. It is no longer a significant economic factor in the world today. Also, don't think that preachers speak their message without understanding the nature of their congregation. The preacher chooses a message they feel the congregation should hear. Rare is the sermon which chastises the economic means of that church body's membership. >The land was Native American land and this was only achieved via genocidal means. Native American tribes were weakened by disease, defeated by technology, and subdued by law (the title of "Guns, Germs, and Steel" captures this point nicely, though I don't agree with all of Diamond's arguments). Would you judge one Native American tribe similarly should they commit genocide upon another tribe and take their lands? Based on your comments here, I suspect no, and I also suspect such is still considered morally wrong but less morally wrong than Western expansion through kinetic force. Racist laws are morally wrong and must be eschewed. There is no doubt that Native Americans were eventually subdued by such laws, but it took decades of fighting for Native Americans to reach their low point. So, I submit to you a serious question to ponder: if two warring entities are technological equals, is their fighting "better" in some sense?

tehjoker 5y ago

> Yet, we also forget that the world then was not like the world today. False. Contemporary preachers were regularly commenting that slavers were going to hell. They didn't have a different morality, just different economic incentives (i.e. they thought they could get away with it). Luminaries such as Jefferson even expressed that slavery was wrong, though he didn't actually free his slaves during his lifetime. Show respect for people of the past, they weren't stupid. It wasn't even that far into the future that the slavery abolition movement got going in other countries such as the UK. > Those grants of land to lower-class citizens ensured the new Western lands would be worked by citizens. The land was Native American land and this was only achieved via genocidal means.

waterheater 5y ago
>They didn't have a different morality, just different economic incentives (i.e. they thought they could get away with it). Exactly, slavery was a significant economic factor in the world back then. It is no longer a significant economic factor in the world today. Also, don't think that preachers speak their message without understanding the nature of their congregation. The preacher chooses a message they feel the congregation should hear. Rare is the sermon which chastises the economic means of that church body's membership. >The land was Native American land and this was only achieved via genocidal means. Native American tribes were weakened by disease, defeated by technology, and subdued by law (the title of "Guns, Germs, and Steel" captures this point nicely, though I don't agree with all of Diamond's arguments). Would you judge one Native American tribe similarly should they commit genocide upon another tribe and take their lands? Based on your comments here, I suspect no, and I also suspect such is still considered morally wrong but less morally wrong than Western expansion through kinetic force. Racist laws are morally wrong and must be eschewed. There is no doubt that Native Americans were eventually subdued by such laws, but it took decades of fighting for Native Americans to reach their low point. So, I submit to you a serious question to ponder: if two warring entities are technological equals, is their fighting "better" in some sense?