8 ms·

for signal users this means the messages of course do exist on your phone, which will be the first thing these agencies seek to abscond with once youre detained

for signal users this means the messages of course do exist on your phone, which will be the first thing these agencies seek to abscond with once youre detained as its infinitely more crackable in their hands. as a casual reminder: The fifth amendment protects your speech, not your biometrics. do not use face or fingerprint to secure your phone. use a strong passphrase, and if in doubt, power down the phone (android) as this offers the greatest protection against offline bruteforce and sidechannel attacks used currently to exploit running processes in the phone.

timbit42 5y ago
Signal recently added 'disappearing messages' which lets you specify how long a chat you initiate remains before being deleted.
- noasaservice 5y ago
  And a screenshot, or another camera, or a rooted phone can easily defeat that. The analog hole ALWAYS exists. Pretending it doesnt is ridiculous.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    > And a screenshot, or another camera, or a rooted phone can easily defeat that. Not if the message has already been deleted. Auto-deleting messages are so the recipient doesn't have to delete them manually, not so the recipient can't possibly keep a copy.
    - summm 5y ago
      Exactly this. Even more: Auto-deleting messages are also that the sender doesn't have to delete them manually. Most people do not understand this. I even had a discussion with an open source chat app implementer who insisted on not implementing disappearing messages because they couldn't be really enforced.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - timbit42 5y ago
    What made you think I was pretending it doesn't?
  - hiq 5y ago
    That's a different threat model, no messaging app is trying to protect the sender from the receiver. Disappearing messages are meant to protect two parties communicating with each other against a 3rd party who would eventually gain access to the device and its data.
  - bigiain 5y ago
    Wickr has a "screenshot notification to sender" feature (which of course, can be worked around by taking a pic of the screen without Wickr knowing you've done it).
- bigiain 5y ago
  Not "recently". Disappearing messages have been there for at least 5 or 5 years. Almost _all_ my Signal chats are on 1 week or 1 day disappearing settings. It helps to remind everyone to grab useful info out of the chat (for example, stick dinner plan times/dates/locations into a calendar) rather than hoping everybody on the chat remembers to delete messages intended to be ephemeral. The "$person set disappearing messages to 5 minutes" has become shorthand for "juicy tidbit that's not to be repeated" amongst quite a few of my circl3es of friends. Even in face to face discussion, someone will occasionally say something like "bigiain has set disappearing messages to five minutes" as a joke/gag way of saying what used to be expressed as "Don't tell anyone, but..." (I just looked it up, https://signal.org/blog/disappearing-messages/ https://signal.org/blog/disappearing-messages/ from Oct 2016.)
  - timbit42 5y ago
    Maybe it was only added recently on the desktop client.
- upofadown 5y ago
  Keep in mind that any time a message is on flash storage there might be a hidden copy kept for flash technical reasons. It is hard to get to (particularly if the disk is encrypted) but might still be accessible in some cases. I think encrypted messengers should have a "completely off the record" mode that can easily be switched on and off. Such a mode would guarantee that your messages are never stored anywhere that might become permanent. When you switch it off then everything is wiped from memory. That might be a good time to ensure any keys associated with a forward secrecy scheme are wiped as well.
leokennis 5y ago
My advice if you’re not on the level where three letter agencies are actively interested in your comings and goings: - Use a strong pass phrase - Enable biometrics so you don’t need to type that pass phrase 100 times per day - Learn the shortcut to have your phone disable biometrics and require the pass phrase so you can use it when police is coming for you, you’re entering the immigration line in the airport etc. - on iPhone this is mashing the side button 5 times
- wskinner 5y ago
  On recent iPhones, the way to disable biometrics is to hold the side button and either volume button until a prompt appears, then tap cancel. Mashing the side button 5 times does not work.
  - minhazm 5y ago
    Not sure how recent you're talking but I have an iPhone 11 Pro and I just tested pressing the side button 5 times and it takes me to the power off screen and prompts me for my password the same way that side button + volume does. Apple's docs also say that pressing the side button 5 times still works. > If you use the Emergency SOS shortcut, you need to enter your passcode to re-enable Touch ID, even if you don't complete a call to emergency services. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208076 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208076
    - cyral 5y ago
      Pressing it five times starts the emergency SOS countdown (and requires the passcode next time) on my iPhone XS. Maybe you have the auto-calling disabled?
      - samtheprogram 5y ago
        It doesn't on my 2nd Gen iPhone SE (2020). That said, anything that causes the "swipe to power off" screen to appear has the same affect, so essentially holding down the button for 5 seconds does the trick.
FalconSensei 5y ago
> do not use face or fingerprint to secure your phone but can't they force you to put your password in that case, instead of your finger?
- caseysoftware 5y ago
  In general, no. The contents of your mind are protected because you must take an active part of disclose them. Of course, they can still order you to give them the password and stick you in jail for Contempt of Court charges if you don't. Check out Habeas Data. It's a fascinating/horrifying book detailing much of this.
  - ribosometronome 5y ago
    To err on the side of caution, it's best to make all your passcodes themselves an admission to a crime.
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      "Your honor, the state agrees to not prosecute on any information inferrable from the text of the password." "Understood. The defendant's Fifth Amendment right to protection from self-incrimination is secured. As per the prior ruling, the defendant will remain in custody for contempt of court until such time as they divulge the necessary password to comply with the warrant."
      - kingcharles 5y ago
        I don't know why you're being downvoted. For a start, if it was a third party that had the passcode and refused to divulge it they can be held in jail until they release it, e.g. if your wife knows it. (There are many cases where people have been sentenced to years or decades in prison for not testifying) If it is you not divulging your own passcode, then legally the judge can't give you contempt, but in reality they could give you contempt until you fought it through the appellate court. Contempt is a special type of thing - certainly here in Illinois you have no right to a jury trial on contempt charges. You're just fucked.
vorpalhex 5y ago
Your statement on the 5th amendment is no longer accurate broadly, but the matter still has some cross-jurisdictional disagreement: https://americanlegalnews.com/biometrics-covered-by-fifth-amendment-judge-rules/ https://americanlegalnews.com/biometrics-covered-by-fifth-am...
- torstenvl 5y ago
  District courts don't make law. Magistrates working for those district courts even less so. The case this news article cites has no precedential value anywhere - not even within N.D.Cal. - and should not be relied upon. IAAL but IANYL
  - kingcharles 5y ago
    Agreed. That decision is unlikely to be repeated by any appellate court. IMO, all the rulings on biometrics not being testimonial are constitutionally correct, even if that sucks. A lot of constitutional rulings suck. The real solution is for a federal statute to require warrants.
jfrunyon 5y ago
The fifth amendment doesn't protect either speech or biometrics. Nor does it protect passwords.
- kingcharles 5y ago
  You are wrong. It protects passwords as speech, as they are testimonial, per many court rulings. It does not protect biometrics based on law that basically says the police can force you to give up your fingerprints for their records, so they can sure as fuck force your finger onto a reader.
  - xuki 5y ago
    Can they force someone to LOOK at the phone? FaceID with attention check will need you to look before it opens.
    - fragmede 5y ago
      Arguably, yes. That's why it's important to know the shortcut on iOS to render faceid inoperable until you give it the password - mash the power button five times fast!
  - jfrunyon 5y ago
    > It protects passwords as speech, as they are testimonial, per many court rulings. Not true. https://www.reuters.com/business/legal/us-supreme-court-nixes-appeal-over-forced-password-disclosure-2021-05-17/ https://www.reuters.com/business/legal/us-supreme-court-nixe... for example.
  - jfrunyon 5y ago
    (Oh and by the way, as I mentioned in the comment you replied to, the fifth amendment DOES NOT PROTECT SPEECH. That's the FIRST amendment. The FIFTH amendment protects AGAINST SELF-INCRIMINATION.)
croutonwagon 5y ago
Also IOS has a panic button. Hit the main/screen button (on the right) five times really fast and faceid/touchid is disabled and passcode is required
kingcharles 5y ago
Don't have any family or friends, either. If you refuse to talk and invoke your rights the government will just threaten to hurt those you love until you break and give up your passwords. From experience. I liked it in Wrath of Man where one guy is acting tough as fuck until they bring his girl into the room. Also, if you can, if you are encrypting data, use a hidden volume inside the first - that way you can give the government the outer password and they'll be happy thinking they have everything.

timbit42 5y ago

Signal recently added 'disappearing messages' which lets you specify how long a chat you initiate remains before being deleted.

noasaservice 5y ago
And a screenshot, or another camera, or a rooted phone can easily defeat that. The analog hole ALWAYS exists. Pretending it doesnt is ridiculous.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  > And a screenshot, or another camera, or a rooted phone can easily defeat that. Not if the message has already been deleted. Auto-deleting messages are so the recipient doesn't have to delete them manually, not so the recipient can't possibly keep a copy.
  - summm 5y ago
    Exactly this. Even more: Auto-deleting messages are also that the sender doesn't have to delete them manually. Most people do not understand this. I even had a discussion with an open source chat app implementer who insisted on not implementing disappearing messages because they couldn't be really enforced.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- timbit42 5y ago
  What made you think I was pretending it doesn't?
- hiq 5y ago
  That's a different threat model, no messaging app is trying to protect the sender from the receiver. Disappearing messages are meant to protect two parties communicating with each other against a 3rd party who would eventually gain access to the device and its data.
- bigiain 5y ago
  Wickr has a "screenshot notification to sender" feature (which of course, can be worked around by taking a pic of the screen without Wickr knowing you've done it).
bigiain 5y ago
Not "recently". Disappearing messages have been there for at least 5 or 5 years. Almost _all_ my Signal chats are on 1 week or 1 day disappearing settings. It helps to remind everyone to grab useful info out of the chat (for example, stick dinner plan times/dates/locations into a calendar) rather than hoping everybody on the chat remembers to delete messages intended to be ephemeral. The "$person set disappearing messages to 5 minutes" has become shorthand for "juicy tidbit that's not to be repeated" amongst quite a few of my circl3es of friends. Even in face to face discussion, someone will occasionally say something like "bigiain has set disappearing messages to five minutes" as a joke/gag way of saying what used to be expressed as "Don't tell anyone, but..." (I just looked it up, https://signal.org/blog/disappearing-messages/ https://signal.org/blog/disappearing-messages/ from Oct 2016.)
- timbit42 5y ago
  Maybe it was only added recently on the desktop client.
upofadown 5y ago
Keep in mind that any time a message is on flash storage there might be a hidden copy kept for flash technical reasons. It is hard to get to (particularly if the disk is encrypted) but might still be accessible in some cases. I think encrypted messengers should have a "completely off the record" mode that can easily be switched on and off. Such a mode would guarantee that your messages are never stored anywhere that might become permanent. When you switch it off then everything is wiped from memory. That might be a good time to ensure any keys associated with a forward secrecy scheme are wiped as well.

leokennis 5y ago

My advice if you’re not on the level where three letter agencies are actively interested in your comings and goings: - Use a strong pass phrase - Enable biometrics so you don’t need to type that pass phrase 100 times per day - Learn the shortcut to have your phone disable biometrics and require the pass phrase so you can use it when police is coming for you, you’re entering the immigration line in the airport etc. - on iPhone this is mashing the side button 5 times

wskinner 5y ago
On recent iPhones, the way to disable biometrics is to hold the side button and either volume button until a prompt appears, then tap cancel. Mashing the side button 5 times does not work.
- minhazm 5y ago
  Not sure how recent you're talking but I have an iPhone 11 Pro and I just tested pressing the side button 5 times and it takes me to the power off screen and prompts me for my password the same way that side button + volume does. Apple's docs also say that pressing the side button 5 times still works. > If you use the Emergency SOS shortcut, you need to enter your passcode to re-enable Touch ID, even if you don't complete a call to emergency services. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208076 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208076
  - cyral 5y ago
    Pressing it five times starts the emergency SOS countdown (and requires the passcode next time) on my iPhone XS. Maybe you have the auto-calling disabled?
    - samtheprogram 5y ago
      It doesn't on my 2nd Gen iPhone SE (2020). That said, anything that causes the "swipe to power off" screen to appear has the same affect, so essentially holding down the button for 5 seconds does the trick.

FalconSensei 5y ago

> do not use face or fingerprint to secure your phone but can't they force you to put your password in that case, instead of your finger?

caseysoftware 5y ago
In general, no. The contents of your mind are protected because you must take an active part of disclose them. Of course, they can still order you to give them the password and stick you in jail for Contempt of Court charges if you don't. Check out Habeas Data. It's a fascinating/horrifying book detailing much of this.
- ribosometronome 5y ago
  To err on the side of caution, it's best to make all your passcodes themselves an admission to a crime.
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    "Your honor, the state agrees to not prosecute on any information inferrable from the text of the password." "Understood. The defendant's Fifth Amendment right to protection from self-incrimination is secured. As per the prior ruling, the defendant will remain in custody for contempt of court until such time as they divulge the necessary password to comply with the warrant."
    - kingcharles 5y ago
      I don't know why you're being downvoted. For a start, if it was a third party that had the passcode and refused to divulge it they can be held in jail until they release it, e.g. if your wife knows it. (There are many cases where people have been sentenced to years or decades in prison for not testifying) If it is you not divulging your own passcode, then legally the judge can't give you contempt, but in reality they could give you contempt until you fought it through the appellate court. Contempt is a special type of thing - certainly here in Illinois you have no right to a jury trial on contempt charges. You're just fucked.

vorpalhex 5y ago

Your statement on the 5th amendment is no longer accurate broadly, but the matter still has some cross-jurisdictional disagreement: https://americanlegalnews.com/biometrics-covered-by-fifth-amendment-judge-rules/ https://americanlegalnews.com/biometrics-covered-by-fifth-am...

torstenvl 5y ago
District courts don't make law. Magistrates working for those district courts even less so. The case this news article cites has no precedential value anywhere - not even within N.D.Cal. - and should not be relied upon. IAAL but IANYL
- kingcharles 5y ago
  Agreed. That decision is unlikely to be repeated by any appellate court. IMO, all the rulings on biometrics not being testimonial are constitutionally correct, even if that sucks. A lot of constitutional rulings suck. The real solution is for a federal statute to require warrants.

jfrunyon 5y ago

The fifth amendment doesn't protect either speech or biometrics. Nor does it protect passwords.

kingcharles 5y ago
You are wrong. It protects passwords as speech, as they are testimonial, per many court rulings. It does not protect biometrics based on law that basically says the police can force you to give up your fingerprints for their records, so they can sure as fuck force your finger onto a reader.
- xuki 5y ago
  Can they force someone to LOOK at the phone? FaceID with attention check will need you to look before it opens.
  - fragmede 5y ago
    Arguably, yes. That's why it's important to know the shortcut on iOS to render faceid inoperable until you give it the password - mash the power button five times fast!
- jfrunyon 5y ago
  > It protects passwords as speech, as they are testimonial, per many court rulings. Not true. https://www.reuters.com/business/legal/us-supreme-court-nixes-appeal-over-forced-password-disclosure-2021-05-17/ https://www.reuters.com/business/legal/us-supreme-court-nixe... for example.
- jfrunyon 5y ago
  (Oh and by the way, as I mentioned in the comment you replied to, the fifth amendment DOES NOT PROTECT SPEECH. That's the FIRST amendment. The FIFTH amendment protects AGAINST SELF-INCRIMINATION.)

croutonwagon 5y ago

Also IOS has a panic button. Hit the main/screen button (on the right) five times really fast and faceid/touchid is disabled and passcode is required

kingcharles 5y ago

Don't have any family or friends, either. If you refuse to talk and invoke your rights the government will just threaten to hurt those you love until you break and give up your passwords. From experience. I liked it in Wrath of Man where one guy is acting tough as fuck until they bring his girl into the room. Also, if you can, if you are encrypting data, use a hidden volume inside the first - that way you can give the government the outer password and they'll be happy thinking they have everything.