3 ms·

> ridiculous, willfully self-poisoning rubes, driving around in noisy, stinky, slow, expensive to own operate and maintain turds Maybe they'll look at similarl

by jhgb 5y ago

> ridiculous, willfully self-poisoning rubes, driving around in noisy, stinky, slow, expensive to own operate and maintain turds Maybe they'll look at similarly as we look at the people of the time of the Neolithic Revolution (and perhaps a long time afterwards), with their lifespans decreased due to poorer diets and zoonotic diseases from domesticated animals.

jjtheblunt 5y ago
Guns, Germs, and Steel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel) argues that proximity to domesticated animals is a win for all species for immunological reasons. The general idea is that similar virus strains exist across species, but only a fraction identically spread across species. So a human may be exposed to a similar but noninfectious virus from (for example) a dog or a cat, and will gain an immunological advantage compared to someone living apart from other species, because the human immune system will remember the foreign protein sequences to which it can react when exposed again.
- jhgb 5y ago
  That's an interesting argument but we know that the transition to agriculture has been horrible to humans, health-wise. Even if there are some minor immunological upsides (which I'm not sure Diamond is the one to convince me about), that's not the whole picture. Also the page you linked says "immunity to diseases endemic in agricultural animals", which sounds like this being a solution to a self-inflicted problem.
  - jjtheblunt 5y ago
    I don't happen to know the reason transition to agriculture has been horrible to humans, health-wise. why is that said to be so?
    - jhgb 5y ago
      > why is that said to be so? Uh...because that's what the archeological findings are? For example, from https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1186&context=nebanthro https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1... : "Cities and other large settlements appeared for the first time during the Neolithic. Pathogens require a large host to thrive and these large, crowded populations provided a human host population that had not previously existed among hunter-gather societies (Armelagos et al. 1991:15). Now able to spread easily from person to person in the crowded conditions of cities, pathogens were able to exploit entire groups and reach endemic levels (Armelagos et al. 1991; Papathanasiou 2005). "Crowded conditions paired with human settlements in close proximity to animals also contributed to high rates of infectious disease. In many early agricultural communities, animals were kept both near to and inside of houses. This proximity allowed some zoonotic diseases to transfer from animals to humans (Armelagos et al. 1991; Eshed et al. 2010). Contaminated water sources and close contact with human waste also facilitated parasitic infection in both animals and humans (Armelagos et al. 1991; Larsen 2006; Papathanasiou 2005)." "The increase of infectious disease associated with the adoption of an agricultural lifestyle did not necessarily increase mortality (Eshed et al. 2010). Those most likely to suffer fatal infections would have been infants, young children, and the elderly. Individuals who reached reproductive age had likely developed a resistance to such diseases (Armelagos et al. 1991). However, it must be noted that nutritional deficiencies can reduce resistance to infections which can further contribute to nutritional deficiencies (Armelagos et al. 1991; Larsen 2006). This interplay between nutrition and disease can increase mortality in populations and inhibit an individual's ability to work and/or reproduce (Goodman 1993)." Basically until we learned about the implications of sedentary urban lifestyle with agriculture, and until we learned how to do something about it, we'd been unknowingly suffering from major quality of life issues.
      - jjtheblunt 5y ago
        thanks

by jhgb 5y ago

jjtheblunt 5y ago

Guns, Germs, and Steel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel) argues that proximity to domesticated animals is a win for all species for immunological reasons. The general idea is that similar virus strains exist across species, but only a fraction identically spread across species. So a human may be exposed to a similar but noninfectious virus from (for example) a dog or a cat, and will gain an immunological advantage compared to someone living apart from other species, because the human immune system will remember the foreign protein sequences to which it can react when exposed again.

jhgb 5y ago
That's an interesting argument but we know that the transition to agriculture has been horrible to humans, health-wise. Even if there are some minor immunological upsides (which I'm not sure Diamond is the one to convince me about), that's not the whole picture. Also the page you linked says "immunity to diseases endemic in agricultural animals", which sounds like this being a solution to a self-inflicted problem.
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
  I don't happen to know the reason transition to agriculture has been horrible to humans, health-wise. why is that said to be so?
  - jhgb 5y ago
    > why is that said to be so? Uh...because that's what the archeological findings are? For example, from https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1186&context=nebanthro https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1... : "Cities and other large settlements appeared for the first time during the Neolithic. Pathogens require a large host to thrive and these large, crowded populations provided a human host population that had not previously existed among hunter-gather societies (Armelagos et al. 1991:15). Now able to spread easily from person to person in the crowded conditions of cities, pathogens were able to exploit entire groups and reach endemic levels (Armelagos et al. 1991; Papathanasiou 2005). "Crowded conditions paired with human settlements in close proximity to animals also contributed to high rates of infectious disease. In many early agricultural communities, animals were kept both near to and inside of houses. This proximity allowed some zoonotic diseases to transfer from animals to humans (Armelagos et al. 1991; Eshed et al. 2010). Contaminated water sources and close contact with human waste also facilitated parasitic infection in both animals and humans (Armelagos et al. 1991; Larsen 2006; Papathanasiou 2005)." "The increase of infectious disease associated with the adoption of an agricultural lifestyle did not necessarily increase mortality (Eshed et al. 2010). Those most likely to suffer fatal infections would have been infants, young children, and the elderly. Individuals who reached reproductive age had likely developed a resistance to such diseases (Armelagos et al. 1991). However, it must be noted that nutritional deficiencies can reduce resistance to infections which can further contribute to nutritional deficiencies (Armelagos et al. 1991; Larsen 2006). This interplay between nutrition and disease can increase mortality in populations and inhibit an individual's ability to work and/or reproduce (Goodman 1993)." Basically until we learned about the implications of sedentary urban lifestyle with agriculture, and until we learned how to do something about it, we'd been unknowingly suffering from major quality of life issues.
    - jjtheblunt 5y ago
      thanks