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The whole lower/middle class divide is an arbitrary distinction that only serves to split the broader working class. A white collar programmer has more in commo

The whole lower/middle class divide is an arbitrary distinction that only serves to split the broader working class. A white collar programmer has more in common with a janitor then with a CEO.

Dma54rhs 5y ago
I think it's absurd take. How many people here are unionised? Not that many but everyone has an opinion what some blue collar workers really want and these are unions. For Euros - American unions are nothing like in Europe.
- malermeister 5y ago
  American unions are nothing like in Europe because American companies pull shit like this. If European companies had the same attitude towards unions as American ones, our unions would respond more aggressively too.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> The whole lower/middle class divide is an arbitrary distinction that only serves to split the broader working class. A The typical drawing of the line in US discussions within the working class is; the middle class is a distinct economic class with distinct interests, but it is a much narrower and generally (though not entirely, because economic class and wealth are different though correlated things) richer group than the usual US understanding of “middle class”.
nobodyandproud 5y ago
I 100% agree, but even in the 1990s and to a fault the degreed programmers were very anti-union.
- black_13 5y ago
  Not this one.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
The white collar blue collar divide is much stronger than the divide between white collar employees and senior management. Source: lived it The programmer has far more in common and can relate (both culturally and economically) far better to the C suite crowd than to the janitor or landscaper.
- nobodyandproud 5y ago
  > The programmer has far more in common and can relate far better to the C suite crowd than to the janitor or landscaper. That’s a matter of perspective. Yes, both are degreed and educated. But that’s where the sameness ends. One may think they’re like the other, but have you heard the term “coding monkey”? Without fail and by necessity every single company has fallen victim to leadership who are less technical and more business minded. Think of Boeing and Google as two recent examples. The better ones tend to keep a strong technical person as a sidekick, but everyone else is fighting for scraps. The rarest and “best” individuals possess both technical savvy and ruthlessness.
- hnaccount141 5y ago
  In terms of cultural differences, the blue/white collar divide is definitely massive. I believe the parent comment is looking at it in more economic terms, where the worker/employer distinction is more meaningful.
- black_13 5y ago
  I have nothing in common with the C suite class. And I have seen how reckless this class has acted given the recessions and wars. Nothing.
- salawat 5y ago
  >The white collar blue collar divide is much stronger than the divide between white collar employees and senior management. Yes, and no. Yes, in the sense that as an engineer you tend to have goals and work directed in the same overall direction as management. Optimize for max output for minimum cost. Your work product also typically is geared toward the eventual outcome of decreasing reliance on manual labor through automation. No; in the sense that you don't get to set the incentives. You're optimizing toward what they will let you optimize toward which will often not actually be what you're told it is. The familiarity you develop as white collar can make this stand out in stark relief if you pay attention to it. Examine a call center implemented well vs. one implemented poorly. Completely different beasts. Or a warehouse. Same thing. You're a force multiplier for those there. You don't get to set the resources, you just have to do the best with what you've got. Ultimately, it comes down, for me, what are you automating for? I wake up, and I try to deburden people first and foremost. I'm there to make sure people have the tools best fit to helping them do what they are there to do in the most ergonomic way possible. Over time, I've skewed more blue collar in my sympathies. I don't like being perception managed, and management theory 101 is chock full of it. I work to get shit done, and help make it easier for others to do so. This creates... more quandaries than I like with traditional leadership types than I like at times, but it is what it is. I will say that if anyone has responsibility for the creation of inequity, at the end of the day, your capital allocating institutions are it.
diordiderot 5y ago
Yes but they think the opposite
kube-system 5y ago
That’s assuming that someone working as janitor is representative of lower class. The median wage for a janitor is $29K. It ain’t a lot, but the 10th percentile wage in the US is $8,500. It’s a very different lifestyle when someone doesn’t have a regular paycheck and the accomplishment of a job title.
lowkey_ 5y ago
> A white collar programmer has more in common with a janitor than with a CEO. As someone who grew up lower-class and now makes six figures in tech, I don't think this is true. There's a world of difference between a janitor and a white-collar programmer. A janitor worries paycheck-to-paycheck and has to consider every purchase, constantly lives in stress of a large unexpected expense, and so on, it's just vastly different. A programmer, like a CEO, has none of those concerns. Who cares if the CEO has earned enough for a bigger mansion or a more prestigious car? At some point (lower than most expect), money offers diminishing returns. A difference of +$100k/year will take care of most of Maslow's hierarchy and have you set for life unless you're financially irresponsible.
- officeplant 5y ago
  I still know six figure programmer friends living paycheck to paycheck, but that mostly comes down to the market that is California. My $40K a year as an underpaid Fire Alarm Tech/Draftsman in Louisiana can't even cover his rent.
- jzb 5y ago
  The janitor is already broke. The person with the six figure income is one or two bad days from being broke. Lose a job, get cancer - you may well be screwed. You’re at someone else’s mercy for insurance, and are dancing to someone else’s tune. The CEO gets fired and walks off with severance greater than a decade or more of your income, and a lifetime of the janitors.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  The difference between the economic classes is much greater than how much money you have. Upper class doesn't mean "earns a lot of money at their day job", it's an entirely different relation to earning.
- 46756e 5y ago
  I definitely agree with this, but I think you will find very few people that do. People in the middle-class want to believe it has more in common with the lower class. Everyone thinks the person slightly richer then them is the one making money they don't need and lives the luxurious life, and everyone their income and lower are the ones with real struggles. The middle-class (me included) might not like it, but they aren't the same as someone who struggles to make ends meet.

The whole lower/middle class divide is an arbitrary distinction that only serves to split the broader working class. A white collar programmer has more in common with a janitor then with a CEO.

Dma54rhs 5y ago

I think it's absurd take. How many people here are unionised? Not that many but everyone has an opinion what some blue collar workers really want and these are unions. For Euros - American unions are nothing like in Europe.

malermeister 5y ago
American unions are nothing like in Europe because American companies pull shit like this. If European companies had the same attitude towards unions as American ones, our unions would respond more aggressively too.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> The whole lower/middle class divide is an arbitrary distinction that only serves to split the broader working class. A The typical drawing of the line in US discussions within the working class is; the middle class is a distinct economic class with distinct interests, but it is a much narrower and generally (though not entirely, because economic class and wealth are different though correlated things) richer group than the usual US understanding of “middle class”.

nobodyandproud 5y ago

I 100% agree, but even in the 1990s and to a fault the degreed programmers were very anti-union.

black_13 5y ago
Not this one.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

The white collar blue collar divide is much stronger than the divide between white collar employees and senior management. Source: lived it The programmer has far more in common and can relate (both culturally and economically) far better to the C suite crowd than to the janitor or landscaper.

nobodyandproud 5y ago
> The programmer has far more in common and can relate far better to the C suite crowd than to the janitor or landscaper. That’s a matter of perspective. Yes, both are degreed and educated. But that’s where the sameness ends. One may think they’re like the other, but have you heard the term “coding monkey”? Without fail and by necessity every single company has fallen victim to leadership who are less technical and more business minded. Think of Boeing and Google as two recent examples. The better ones tend to keep a strong technical person as a sidekick, but everyone else is fighting for scraps. The rarest and “best” individuals possess both technical savvy and ruthlessness.
hnaccount141 5y ago
In terms of cultural differences, the blue/white collar divide is definitely massive. I believe the parent comment is looking at it in more economic terms, where the worker/employer distinction is more meaningful.
black_13 5y ago
I have nothing in common with the C suite class. And I have seen how reckless this class has acted given the recessions and wars. Nothing.
salawat 5y ago
>The white collar blue collar divide is much stronger than the divide between white collar employees and senior management. Yes, and no. Yes, in the sense that as an engineer you tend to have goals and work directed in the same overall direction as management. Optimize for max output for minimum cost. Your work product also typically is geared toward the eventual outcome of decreasing reliance on manual labor through automation. No; in the sense that you don't get to set the incentives. You're optimizing toward what they will let you optimize toward which will often not actually be what you're told it is. The familiarity you develop as white collar can make this stand out in stark relief if you pay attention to it. Examine a call center implemented well vs. one implemented poorly. Completely different beasts. Or a warehouse. Same thing. You're a force multiplier for those there. You don't get to set the resources, you just have to do the best with what you've got. Ultimately, it comes down, for me, what are you automating for? I wake up, and I try to deburden people first and foremost. I'm there to make sure people have the tools best fit to helping them do what they are there to do in the most ergonomic way possible. Over time, I've skewed more blue collar in my sympathies. I don't like being perception managed, and management theory 101 is chock full of it. I work to get shit done, and help make it easier for others to do so. This creates... more quandaries than I like with traditional leadership types than I like at times, but it is what it is. I will say that if anyone has responsibility for the creation of inequity, at the end of the day, your capital allocating institutions are it.

diordiderot 5y ago

Yes but they think the opposite

kube-system 5y ago

That’s assuming that someone working as janitor is representative of lower class. The median wage for a janitor is $29K. It ain’t a lot, but the 10th percentile wage in the US is $8,500. It’s a very different lifestyle when someone doesn’t have a regular paycheck and the accomplishment of a job title.

lowkey_ 5y ago

> A white collar programmer has more in common with a janitor than with a CEO. As someone who grew up lower-class and now makes six figures in tech, I don't think this is true. There's a world of difference between a janitor and a white-collar programmer. A janitor worries paycheck-to-paycheck and has to consider every purchase, constantly lives in stress of a large unexpected expense, and so on, it's just vastly different. A programmer, like a CEO, has none of those concerns. Who cares if the CEO has earned enough for a bigger mansion or a more prestigious car? At some point (lower than most expect), money offers diminishing returns. A difference of +$100k/year will take care of most of Maslow's hierarchy and have you set for life unless you're financially irresponsible.

officeplant 5y ago
I still know six figure programmer friends living paycheck to paycheck, but that mostly comes down to the market that is California. My $40K a year as an underpaid Fire Alarm Tech/Draftsman in Louisiana can't even cover his rent.
jzb 5y ago
The janitor is already broke. The person with the six figure income is one or two bad days from being broke. Lose a job, get cancer - you may well be screwed. You’re at someone else’s mercy for insurance, and are dancing to someone else’s tune. The CEO gets fired and walks off with severance greater than a decade or more of your income, and a lifetime of the janitors.
beaconstudios 5y ago
The difference between the economic classes is much greater than how much money you have. Upper class doesn't mean "earns a lot of money at their day job", it's an entirely different relation to earning.
46756e 5y ago
I definitely agree with this, but I think you will find very few people that do. People in the middle-class want to believe it has more in common with the lower class. Everyone thinks the person slightly richer then them is the one making money they don't need and lives the luxurious life, and everyone their income and lower are the ones with real struggles. The middle-class (me included) might not like it, but they aren't the same as someone who struggles to make ends meet.