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Lots of "Amazon Bad, Union Good" sentiment in these comments. How is it that HN'ers look at entities like the UAW or various state teachers' unions and think,

Lots of "Amazon Bad, Union Good" sentiment in these comments. How is it that HN'ers look at entities like the UAW or various state teachers' unions and think, "Yeah, let me get some of that."? Is there an example of increased union-ization of a U.S. company leading to better outcomes for customers?

scotu 5y ago
the point of the union is better outcomes for the workers, not for the customers
- busterarm 5y ago
  collective bargaining certainly isn't better than compensation and terms that I have been able to negotiate.
  - scotu 5y ago
    what a boring argument. Also wrong. I would put a lot of money on "you didn't a/b test collective bargaining with your own negotiation" because it's simply impossible, so you don't really know if that's true. Also most workers are not in a job with a candidate shortage (and candidate shortages don't last forever, better have a union while you have the power to make it happen then when you become a throwaway widget for your company)
    - busterarm 5y ago
      I've negotiated salaries that are 2 or 3 times what my peers have made in the same position. I've also negotiated in non-standard vacation packages, like a fixed 2 months off every year. That simply doesn't happen in collective bargaining. I've hardly ever been a throwaway widget in any job and even when I was working shitty jobs I was the type to get promoted quickly. The only places this never happened were my 3 union jobs. And in each case I was forced to work for the union -- I wasn't seeking it.
      - scotu 5y ago
        yeah, collective bargaining never does any good /s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining Last week tonight on union busting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk8dUXRpoy8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk8dUXRpoy8 When a union does not work or is corrupt, we fix the union, we don't give away the collective power to the opposing side of the negotiation: oh no, my lawyer is not doing my best interest he's only trying to rake up the fees! you know what? I'll let my opponent's lawyer represent me in court instead!
  - ausbah 5y ago
    only because tech is one of the few industries where demand is greater than supply
- thereisnospork 5y ago
  And that there is a problem: Even if you are in a union, you are undoubtedly the customer of many unions or would-be unions. edit: clarification 'a' refers to a singular union and isn't a comment on the quality/nature of said union(s).
  - scotu 5y ago
    ok, so what is the problem? Participate in it if it needs to change direction or join a different one if that option is available. The problem at hand is that 100 people are forced to fend for themselves against a company when they could act as a block and have leverage. One problem at a time
- gentleman11 5y ago
  Same thing can be said of freeing slaves. “Did anybody stop to think of how it would affect the customers?!” The lower class is not a bunch of animals to be exploited as much as possible so middle class people can have cheaper shipping
  - defaultprimate 5y ago
    Except slavery was economically inefficient.
onion2k 5y ago
Lots of "Amazon Bad, Union Good" sentiment in these comments. I think there's a difference between saying "Amazon is bad to intimidate its workers" and "Unions are good". It's totally fair to agree that Amazon have been acting very poorly intimidating its warehouse workers while also thinking those workers would be better off voting no to joining a union. Ultimately the workers should have a free vote to determine what they want for themselves. You don't need to be pro- or anti-union to believe that.
maccolgan 5y ago
>state teachers' unions I'd say yes to that.
- xibalba 5y ago
  Are you very familiar with teacher's unions? Here's an example of the great value they're delivering in the U.S.: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/08/31/the-rubber-room https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/08/31/the-rubber-roo...
  - nfd 5y ago
    I have fair understanding of a teachers' union. I think I can say that the NY situation is pretty degenerate relative to most places/unions. My cursory understanding is that if NYSED made an effort to actually push through their arbitration backlog at various points in the past, that situation would be much less ridiculous. Around plenty of municipalities, teachers' unions are just trying to get teachers slightly closer to living wages, and trying to best advocate for their students. That's the impression I've gotten from being vaguely around during a lot of bargaining meetings.
  - maccolgan 5y ago
    My comment was sarcastic lol, considering they are almost never fired despite underperforming. (I'd like to be immune to productivity requuirements and leech off society, only ironically)
    - xibalba 5y ago
      Ha! Your sarcasm didn't translate (for me) to text. Maybe next time use the new HTML6 tag "<sarcasm></sarcasm>".
GoodJokes 5y ago
better outcomes for customers...how about better outcomes for workers? I think you have missed the whole point of a union. Unions exist so that workers are not exploited for their labor. Fair wages and benefits should be a per-requisite to even HAVE customers. Otherwise, you are not a viable business in the moral or ethical sense.
t-writescode 5y ago
I know that I look at how big box stores, like Office Depot, and restaurants treat their workers and go "Wow, those employees deserve LOTS of protections and a better experience", and I'm willing to consider unions as an option for that. The poor are the most exploited people because they literally can't accept anything else for fear of death, and I want better for them. If a union can bring that, then I rejoice for their chance to try out a union and get their deserved wages.
- esarbe 5y ago
  Right? I mean, how can someone disagree with giving the most exploited members of our society a little bit more leverage?

scotu 5y ago

the point of the union is better outcomes for the workers, not for the customers

busterarm 5y ago
collective bargaining certainly isn't better than compensation and terms that I have been able to negotiate.
- scotu 5y ago
  what a boring argument. Also wrong. I would put a lot of money on "you didn't a/b test collective bargaining with your own negotiation" because it's simply impossible, so you don't really know if that's true. Also most workers are not in a job with a candidate shortage (and candidate shortages don't last forever, better have a union while you have the power to make it happen then when you become a throwaway widget for your company)
  - busterarm 5y ago
    I've negotiated salaries that are 2 or 3 times what my peers have made in the same position. I've also negotiated in non-standard vacation packages, like a fixed 2 months off every year. That simply doesn't happen in collective bargaining. I've hardly ever been a throwaway widget in any job and even when I was working shitty jobs I was the type to get promoted quickly. The only places this never happened were my 3 union jobs. And in each case I was forced to work for the union -- I wasn't seeking it.
    - scotu 5y ago
      yeah, collective bargaining never does any good /s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining Last week tonight on union busting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk8dUXRpoy8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk8dUXRpoy8 When a union does not work or is corrupt, we fix the union, we don't give away the collective power to the opposing side of the negotiation: oh no, my lawyer is not doing my best interest he's only trying to rake up the fees! you know what? I'll let my opponent's lawyer represent me in court instead!
- ausbah 5y ago
  only because tech is one of the few industries where demand is greater than supply
thereisnospork 5y ago
And that there is a problem: Even if you are in a union, you are undoubtedly the customer of many unions or would-be unions. edit: clarification 'a' refers to a singular union and isn't a comment on the quality/nature of said union(s).
- scotu 5y ago
  ok, so what is the problem? Participate in it if it needs to change direction or join a different one if that option is available. The problem at hand is that 100 people are forced to fend for themselves against a company when they could act as a block and have leverage. One problem at a time
gentleman11 5y ago
Same thing can be said of freeing slaves. “Did anybody stop to think of how it would affect the customers?!” The lower class is not a bunch of animals to be exploited as much as possible so middle class people can have cheaper shipping
- defaultprimate 5y ago
  Except slavery was economically inefficient.

onion2k 5y ago

Lots of "Amazon Bad, Union Good" sentiment in these comments. I think there's a difference between saying "Amazon is bad to intimidate its workers" and "Unions are good". It's totally fair to agree that Amazon have been acting very poorly intimidating its warehouse workers while also thinking those workers would be better off voting no to joining a union. Ultimately the workers should have a free vote to determine what they want for themselves. You don't need to be pro- or anti-union to believe that.

maccolgan 5y ago

>state teachers' unions I'd say yes to that.

xibalba 5y ago
Are you very familiar with teacher's unions? Here's an example of the great value they're delivering in the U.S.: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/08/31/the-rubber-room https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/08/31/the-rubber-roo...
- nfd 5y ago
  I have fair understanding of a teachers' union. I think I can say that the NY situation is pretty degenerate relative to most places/unions. My cursory understanding is that if NYSED made an effort to actually push through their arbitration backlog at various points in the past, that situation would be much less ridiculous. Around plenty of municipalities, teachers' unions are just trying to get teachers slightly closer to living wages, and trying to best advocate for their students. That's the impression I've gotten from being vaguely around during a lot of bargaining meetings.
- maccolgan 5y ago
  My comment was sarcastic lol, considering they are almost never fired despite underperforming. (I'd like to be immune to productivity requuirements and leech off society, only ironically)
  - xibalba 5y ago
    Ha! Your sarcasm didn't translate (for me) to text. Maybe next time use the new HTML6 tag "<sarcasm></sarcasm>".

GoodJokes 5y ago

better outcomes for customers...how about better outcomes for workers? I think you have missed the whole point of a union. Unions exist so that workers are not exploited for their labor. Fair wages and benefits should be a per-requisite to even HAVE customers. Otherwise, you are not a viable business in the moral or ethical sense.

t-writescode 5y ago

I know that I look at how big box stores, like Office Depot, and restaurants treat their workers and go "Wow, those employees deserve LOTS of protections and a better experience", and I'm willing to consider unions as an option for that. The poor are the most exploited people because they literally can't accept anything else for fear of death, and I want better for them. If a union can bring that, then I rejoice for their chance to try out a union and get their deserved wages.

esarbe 5y ago
Right? I mean, how can someone disagree with giving the most exploited members of our society a little bit more leverage?