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That only works when both people are in on it. If someone doesn't know "stupid" is code for "that idea is stupid" and not "you are stupid", it isn't a very eff

That only works when both people are in on it. If someone doesn't know "stupid" is code for "that idea is stupid" and not "you are stupid", it isn't a very effective communication mechanism. People are complex, and it is not helpful to assume everyone should just go about their day to day as an emotionless robot. I mean, you can assume that, but unless you're a CEO or a famous Professor, you'll just be thought of as an asshole to be avoided.

leephillips 5y ago
It's not "code". Saying "that idea is stupid" is different from saying "you are stupid". Nobody has to be "in on" anything. However, unless one is used to this frank style of communication, I'm sure it can be off-putting.
- crispyambulance 5y ago
  "used to" is basically the same thing as "in on it". Moreover, context matters a lot with language style. One can't just lift Feynman's way of talking, transplant it somewhere else and expect it to be effective.
- watwut 5y ago
  It still makes you a rude jerk in most situations.
  - luckydata 5y ago
    In the USA it does, in Europe it's way more normal.
  - blitzar 5y ago
    If I throw a bad pass in a ball game, and it gets called out as such, does that imply that they consider me a 'bad person'? Possibly some totally irredeemable piece of shit that should be locked up and not around children? Or is a bad pass, like a the bad idea thrown out there, just that?
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      It's a line. I would not want ideas in my workplace to regularly be called "stupid" but I wouldn't mind "bad" nearly as much.
    - smcl 5y ago
      Ok first - no it doesn't make you an irredeemable piece of shit or a bad person. But if you do it in a weird way it does mean that you're someone who's lacking in social skills. We're talking in abstract ideas so I can't possibly know what you meant but: blitzar: what the fuck is wrong with you, smcl, that's two goals you've cost us because you lost your man and blitzar: for fuck's sake, smcl, focus, watch #11 he's killing us with those runs. we're not out of the game but you need to step it up are two ways you as a teammate could probably admonish me for costing our team a couple of goals. Both involve swearing, both are blunt and establish some fault. One is useless ranting, and will probably heap misery on the teammate and make them wish for the final whistle. The other is relatively productive and could possibly help (depending on how useless or hungover I am). So it depends, if by "called out" you mean something like #1 then I strongly disagree. If it's #2 then cool, I'd like you as a teammate :) But on that original topic, I think that when someone says they think "that's a stupid idea" is unconstructive or damaging, it doesn't mean they want to be coddled, given a treat and told they're special. It just means that's a needlessly confrontational approach. If that person at the top of this thread is really on the same wavelength with some people that they can openly talk like that, more power to them. But I suspect what's actually happening is a handful of students were talking that way, and most people secretly resented it and didn't enjoy being around them because of how they acted. Then again, if it's coming from Feynmann I imagine there's something in the tone, delivery or context that would soften the blow :)
- SavantIdiot 5y ago
  You have incorrectly interpreted the thread. It literally starts with Feynman saying, "That's stupid," and the subsequent poster claims that it is to be implied the idea is stupid, not the person. I point out that lacking "that idea", it becomes code.
  - slingnow 5y ago
    So can you explain exactly what the "that" in "That's stupid" is referring to?
    - SavantIdiot 5y ago
      You are free to say whatever you want and speak however you like. Just remember not everyone fills in the blanks the same way, and when being critical it is important to be specific. If that bothers you and you want to grind away at it to prove your way of speaking is correct, good luck with that. I hope you end up working with people who feel the same way.
      - inputvolch 5y ago
        You didn't answer the question, and instead leapt to something hand wavey about how people fill in blanks. Nobody is grinding away at anything, perhaps other than yourself. It seems many people here are mystified by your unyielding interpretation of a two word sentence and nobody can seem to get a straight answer out of you, other than repeating the truism that "it's not obvious".
  - OnlineGladiator 5y ago
    It's not code. "That's stupid" is short for "that idea is stupid." There's no way to change it to "that idea is stupid and therefore you are too" without the person making the leap on their own. It only says how insecure someone is to assume that.
    - jolmg 5y ago
      > without the person making the leap on their own. It only says how insecure someone is to assume that. Not necessarily. There are social environments where things aren't said directly, but rather communicated through choice of words, body language and actions. People can make their thoughts abundantly clear without saying them directly, and some would expect you to understand even if they don't communicate it directly. Figuring out if a person/group says things directly or indirectly is part of the code. It's not necessarily about insecurity. Even a person secure in their own abilities can benefit from understanding when people communicate heavily between the lines.
deltarholamda 5y ago
It's an old saw, but we teach children the "sticks and stones" bromide because it's true. Having to bracket everything you say in qualifiers and conditions is why press releases are completely unreadable dreck. If you're in a field where Things Have To Get Done, stopping every few words to make sure nobody's getting their feelings hurt is a cost with very little benefit, other than airy and nebulous principles like "inclusivity." Not to mention you will never--and I mean never--get people of a certain temperament to go along with an ever-changing set of rules designed to inflict zero emotional distress. And the people of that temperament are very likely to be in technical roles. I mean, you can want it to be different, but you might as well want the sky to rain cheese.
- j7ake 5y ago
  If you're in a field where "Things Have To Get Done", why add superfluous words like "That is stupid, it won't work because X", when "it won't work because X" is sufficient and is easier on the ears to the listener?
  - washadjeffmad 5y ago
    Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick? It's not the word count, it's the density of meaning.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  Eh, I think a big part of getting things done is to creating an environment where people feel comfortable getting things done.
  - whydoyoucare 5y ago
    I think that is largely a difficult and expensive task, since there is no universally accepted definition of "feeling comfortable", and it is impossible to comfort a snowflake. I'd rather be happy letting people go than chasing some elusive target in the name of political correctness. Sooner or later, I will either end up being miserably alone or with enough smart people who just get things done. I think this risk is worth taking.
stronglikedan 5y ago
If someone mistakenly interprets "that's a stupid idea" as "you're stupid", then that's on them. You can't stop someone from thinking the world revolves around them like that.
- pythko 5y ago
  In the article, the author says "The harsh words stung at first, and caused me to question whether I belonged in theoretical physics." What prevented the author taking this to heart? "In the next breath, he would always be encouraging me to try a different approach and inviting me to return when I made progress." The appropriate takeaway is that when you call someone's ideas stupid, that does make them feel stupid unless you counteract it with positive feedback in the same conversation.
  - JanNash 5y ago
    This! Also, tone and general behaviour matters. I think many comments here mistake this beautiful article for advice to use words like this. I’ve read both his biographic books multiple times, read into the Feynman Lectures and watched many an interview and other stuff with and about him. If I’d ever gotten to meet him (he’s a top candidate on my “if you could have dinner with any person, living or dead” list) and he’d have called an idea of mine stupid, I’m pretty sure that my reaction wouldn’t have been to be hurt. I would have hoped for him to explain to me why it’s stupid or give me a hint on where to look to find out for myself. Context matters. Character matters. Don’t call people stupid. Don’t call things (or ideas) stupid unless you can explain what’s stupid about the thing or idea and why. If you’re passionate about something, try to appreciate when someone tells you, without euphemism, why it won’t work. If anyone has an idea on how one could get to travel back and meet him, we can find out together why it’s stupid. Or “impossible” :)

leephillips 5y ago

It's not "code". Saying "that idea is stupid" is different from saying "you are stupid". Nobody has to be "in on" anything. However, unless one is used to this frank style of communication, I'm sure it can be off-putting.

crispyambulance 5y ago
"used to" is basically the same thing as "in on it". Moreover, context matters a lot with language style. One can't just lift Feynman's way of talking, transplant it somewhere else and expect it to be effective.
watwut 5y ago
It still makes you a rude jerk in most situations.
- luckydata 5y ago
  In the USA it does, in Europe it's way more normal.
- blitzar 5y ago
  If I throw a bad pass in a ball game, and it gets called out as such, does that imply that they consider me a 'bad person'? Possibly some totally irredeemable piece of shit that should be locked up and not around children? Or is a bad pass, like a the bad idea thrown out there, just that?
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    It's a line. I would not want ideas in my workplace to regularly be called "stupid" but I wouldn't mind "bad" nearly as much.
  - smcl 5y ago
    Ok first - no it doesn't make you an irredeemable piece of shit or a bad person. But if you do it in a weird way it does mean that you're someone who's lacking in social skills. We're talking in abstract ideas so I can't possibly know what you meant but: blitzar: what the fuck is wrong with you, smcl, that's two goals you've cost us because you lost your man and blitzar: for fuck's sake, smcl, focus, watch #11 he's killing us with those runs. we're not out of the game but you need to step it up are two ways you as a teammate could probably admonish me for costing our team a couple of goals. Both involve swearing, both are blunt and establish some fault. One is useless ranting, and will probably heap misery on the teammate and make them wish for the final whistle. The other is relatively productive and could possibly help (depending on how useless or hungover I am). So it depends, if by "called out" you mean something like #1 then I strongly disagree. If it's #2 then cool, I'd like you as a teammate :) But on that original topic, I think that when someone says they think "that's a stupid idea" is unconstructive or damaging, it doesn't mean they want to be coddled, given a treat and told they're special. It just means that's a needlessly confrontational approach. If that person at the top of this thread is really on the same wavelength with some people that they can openly talk like that, more power to them. But I suspect what's actually happening is a handful of students were talking that way, and most people secretly resented it and didn't enjoy being around them because of how they acted. Then again, if it's coming from Feynmann I imagine there's something in the tone, delivery or context that would soften the blow :)
SavantIdiot 5y ago
You have incorrectly interpreted the thread. It literally starts with Feynman saying, "That's stupid," and the subsequent poster claims that it is to be implied the idea is stupid, not the person. I point out that lacking "that idea", it becomes code.
- slingnow 5y ago
  So can you explain exactly what the "that" in "That's stupid" is referring to?
  - SavantIdiot 5y ago
    You are free to say whatever you want and speak however you like. Just remember not everyone fills in the blanks the same way, and when being critical it is important to be specific. If that bothers you and you want to grind away at it to prove your way of speaking is correct, good luck with that. I hope you end up working with people who feel the same way.
    - inputvolch 5y ago
      You didn't answer the question, and instead leapt to something hand wavey about how people fill in blanks. Nobody is grinding away at anything, perhaps other than yourself. It seems many people here are mystified by your unyielding interpretation of a two word sentence and nobody can seem to get a straight answer out of you, other than repeating the truism that "it's not obvious".
- OnlineGladiator 5y ago
  It's not code. "That's stupid" is short for "that idea is stupid." There's no way to change it to "that idea is stupid and therefore you are too" without the person making the leap on their own. It only says how insecure someone is to assume that.
  - jolmg 5y ago
    > without the person making the leap on their own. It only says how insecure someone is to assume that. Not necessarily. There are social environments where things aren't said directly, but rather communicated through choice of words, body language and actions. People can make their thoughts abundantly clear without saying them directly, and some would expect you to understand even if they don't communicate it directly. Figuring out if a person/group says things directly or indirectly is part of the code. It's not necessarily about insecurity. Even a person secure in their own abilities can benefit from understanding when people communicate heavily between the lines.

deltarholamda 5y ago

It's an old saw, but we teach children the "sticks and stones" bromide because it's true. Having to bracket everything you say in qualifiers and conditions is why press releases are completely unreadable dreck. If you're in a field where Things Have To Get Done, stopping every few words to make sure nobody's getting their feelings hurt is a cost with very little benefit, other than airy and nebulous principles like "inclusivity." Not to mention you will never--and I mean never--get people of a certain temperament to go along with an ever-changing set of rules designed to inflict zero emotional distress. And the people of that temperament are very likely to be in technical roles. I mean, you can want it to be different, but you might as well want the sky to rain cheese.

j7ake 5y ago
If you're in a field where "Things Have To Get Done", why add superfluous words like "That is stupid, it won't work because X", when "it won't work because X" is sufficient and is easier on the ears to the listener?
- washadjeffmad 5y ago
  Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick? It's not the word count, it's the density of meaning.
whimsicalism 5y ago
Eh, I think a big part of getting things done is to creating an environment where people feel comfortable getting things done.
- whydoyoucare 5y ago
  I think that is largely a difficult and expensive task, since there is no universally accepted definition of "feeling comfortable", and it is impossible to comfort a snowflake. I'd rather be happy letting people go than chasing some elusive target in the name of political correctness. Sooner or later, I will either end up being miserably alone or with enough smart people who just get things done. I think this risk is worth taking.

stronglikedan 5y ago

If someone mistakenly interprets "that's a stupid idea" as "you're stupid", then that's on them. You can't stop someone from thinking the world revolves around them like that.

pythko 5y ago
In the article, the author says "The harsh words stung at first, and caused me to question whether I belonged in theoretical physics." What prevented the author taking this to heart? "In the next breath, he would always be encouraging me to try a different approach and inviting me to return when I made progress." The appropriate takeaway is that when you call someone's ideas stupid, that does make them feel stupid unless you counteract it with positive feedback in the same conversation.
- JanNash 5y ago
  This! Also, tone and general behaviour matters. I think many comments here mistake this beautiful article for advice to use words like this. I’ve read both his biographic books multiple times, read into the Feynman Lectures and watched many an interview and other stuff with and about him. If I’d ever gotten to meet him (he’s a top candidate on my “if you could have dinner with any person, living or dead” list) and he’d have called an idea of mine stupid, I’m pretty sure that my reaction wouldn’t have been to be hurt. I would have hoped for him to explain to me why it’s stupid or give me a hint on where to look to find out for myself. Context matters. Character matters. Don’t call people stupid. Don’t call things (or ideas) stupid unless you can explain what’s stupid about the thing or idea and why. If you’re passionate about something, try to appreciate when someone tells you, without euphemism, why it won’t work. If anyone has an idea on how one could get to travel back and meet him, we can find out together why it’s stupid. Or “impossible” :)