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I assume by low/high you mean skill level, not closeness-to-the-metal? Isn't this to be expected, though? As software consumption becomes more commoditized and

I assume by low/high you mean skill level, not closeness-to-the-metal? Isn't this to be expected, though? As software consumption becomes more commoditized and de facto standards arise (your basic lookalike business webpage), more and more people are able to easily replicate the feat, and it becomes less about creativity and innovation and more just a matter of rote implementation, like any other manufacturing trade. Interchangeable agencies pumping out cookie-cutter code on an assembly line, with some white-labeling thrown in. Code is just another commodity (you can already produce usable code after a short boot camp, not unlike any other corporate training program). These days what sells isn't even software engineering excellence, but just advertising bubbles inside walled gardens, driven by divisive and sensationalized content. What little "innovation" there is seems to mostly be B2B-toolchain related, shovel vendors desperately trying to sell to the next big garden, all funded by speculative VC money. It's just another bubble. On top of that, after COVID, with more companies moving remote, US workers now have to compete with not just each other from different states, but a global labor pool that typically works way harder than we do for much less money. And with income inequality getting worse and privacy concerns growing stronger, there's only so many dollars to be had chasing viral networks of peasants... that well isn't going to run forever. Like any other maturing business, what gets you the big bucks ends up being charisma, manipulation, and personality... not engineering. Proper "hard" engineering still pays the medium bucks, but most coders aren't like that, just various shades of amateur pumping out mediocre code for other mediocre companies, the same mediocrity most of the world has always run on, no matter their line of work. It's definitely not the 80s anymore, where coding is some elitist white-collar thing. It's just another job.

siproprio 5y ago
"global labor pool that typically works way harder than we do for much less money" yes, we do, and we love the USA.
alejandro_0213 5y ago
>On top of that, after COVID, with more companies moving remote, US workers now have to compete with not just each other from different states, but a global labor pool that typically works way harder than we do for much less money. And with income inequality getting worse and privacy concerns growing stronger, there's only so many dollars to be had chasing viral networks of peasants... that well isn't going to run forever. No they don't. Very few US jobs are remote-anywhere.
honkycat 5y ago
> but a global labor pool that typically works way harder than we do for much less money. I'm getting really sick of this cliche. People in the US work their asses off, I've seen developers working long hours at literally every one of my jobs. Also, time in seat != productivity, and actually time in seat can be extremely harmful to your productivity. We have the research, we have proven this. Having someone perform "hard work" because: - They are too incompetent to complete their tasks while also taking care of their health - They are too economically terrorized to have any power in how much they work is not a good thing and I am doubtful that it will produce good results. The Enlightenment was a time of liberalism and leisure, and it was a great leap forward in technology. Hard times do not make strong people, it creates corruption and desperate living. If "working hard" is such a virtue, why is Japan's economy constantly in the shitter despite their reputation for working long hours?
- technobabbler 5y ago
  I think you're preaching to the choir here. I'm not defending workaholism, just pointing out that commoditized code makes wage-work development a race to the bottom. Working hard isn't a "virtue", it's just something that business owners can amplify in an effort to pit workers against each other, especially for online software that doesn't require geographic proximity. Imagine the same long hours but at 10% the current wages. Manufacturing has gone through the whole outsourcing-to-reshoring rollercoaster, and that's only just starting to touch coding. Give it 10-20 years and it'll be much worse for American devs as domestic competition increases and the rest of the world catches up, all while the advertising bubble bursts and climate refugeeism increases. I'm not glorifying back-breaking labor, I'm worrying about our future. Japan is a perfect case in point... that's the kind of society I'd like to avoid, feudalism with perfunctory "pick your favorite lord" days. But as wealth increasingly concentrates in fewer and fewer hands and democracy crumbles, I think that sort of dystopia is unavoidable. Japan got to that point even with deeply entrenched racism and xenophobia, where labor immigration isn't a big part of their workforce... and they still developed those problems. In a society like ours, where capital is free to hire work from basically anyone and anywhere, it's going to be even more amplified. Bad time to have kids.

siproprio 5y ago

"global labor pool that typically works way harder than we do for much less money" yes, we do, and we love the USA.

alejandro_0213 5y ago

>On top of that, after COVID, with more companies moving remote, US workers now have to compete with not just each other from different states, but a global labor pool that typically works way harder than we do for much less money. And with income inequality getting worse and privacy concerns growing stronger, there's only so many dollars to be had chasing viral networks of peasants... that well isn't going to run forever. No they don't. Very few US jobs are remote-anywhere.

honkycat 5y ago

> but a global labor pool that typically works way harder than we do for much less money. I'm getting really sick of this cliche. People in the US work their asses off, I've seen developers working long hours at literally every one of my jobs. Also, time in seat != productivity, and actually time in seat can be extremely harmful to your productivity. We have the research, we have proven this. Having someone perform "hard work" because: - They are too incompetent to complete their tasks while also taking care of their health - They are too economically terrorized to have any power in how much they work is not a good thing and I am doubtful that it will produce good results. The Enlightenment was a time of liberalism and leisure, and it was a great leap forward in technology. Hard times do not make strong people, it creates corruption and desperate living. If "working hard" is such a virtue, why is Japan's economy constantly in the shitter despite their reputation for working long hours?

technobabbler 5y ago
I think you're preaching to the choir here. I'm not defending workaholism, just pointing out that commoditized code makes wage-work development a race to the bottom. Working hard isn't a "virtue", it's just something that business owners can amplify in an effort to pit workers against each other, especially for online software that doesn't require geographic proximity. Imagine the same long hours but at 10% the current wages. Manufacturing has gone through the whole outsourcing-to-reshoring rollercoaster, and that's only just starting to touch coding. Give it 10-20 years and it'll be much worse for American devs as domestic competition increases and the rest of the world catches up, all while the advertising bubble bursts and climate refugeeism increases. I'm not glorifying back-breaking labor, I'm worrying about our future. Japan is a perfect case in point... that's the kind of society I'd like to avoid, feudalism with perfunctory "pick your favorite lord" days. But as wealth increasingly concentrates in fewer and fewer hands and democracy crumbles, I think that sort of dystopia is unavoidable. Japan got to that point even with deeply entrenched racism and xenophobia, where labor immigration isn't a big part of their workforce... and they still developed those problems. In a society like ours, where capital is free to hire work from basically anyone and anywhere, it's going to be even more amplified. Bad time to have kids.