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> As with seemingly most things, we are witnessing a reemergence of a system similar to what existed before the American Revolution, the feudalistic, aristocra

> As with seemingly most things, we are witnessing a reemergence of a system similar to what existed before the American Revolution, the feudalistic, aristocratic, monarchical system where you must show fealty to your vassal lord corporation. This is not something new, but has always been the case. Capitalism is the 2nd iteration of feudalism. When the French revolution threw feudalism into jeopardy, the feudal lords - conservatives who sat in the right wing of the French parliament- hoped capitalism would rescue feudalism and help maintain social hierarchies. Democracy is seen as anti feudal and anti capitalist in its genesis, by giving everyone one vote independent of wealth. Earliest proposals for elections were only for Male land owners. The founding fathers were capitalists for the most part.

deleted 5y ago
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ben_w 5y ago
The Communist Manifesto certainly sees things that way, but I don’t think capitalism has been like that in the USA since roughly Roosevelt’s New Deal. (I don’t want to suggest this happened everywhere at the same time: weirdly, my British history lessons don’t cover anything the British did or experienced between the two World Wars other than “Chamberlain was naïve”). The iconic images of the downfall of Communism was the economic catastrophe, shops with empty shelves, etc.; Capitalism had a similar experience in the Great Depression, was changed by it, but the name remained.
- kaibee 5y ago
  > Capitalism had a similar experience in the Great Depression, was changed by it, but the name remained. Unfortunately a lot of those New Deal changes were reverted since then. For one, the minimum wage was supposed to be a living wage one could raise a family on.
  - jason0597 5y ago
    > the minimum wage was supposed to be a living wage one could raise a family on. Do you have a source?
bcrosby95 5y ago
Hell, some states required land ownership to vote in the USA up to the 1850s.
- jfk13 5y ago
  > "While constitutionally given the right to vote by the Fifteenth Amendment in 1870 and 19th Amendment in 1920, the reality of the country was such that most African Americans and some poor whites could not vote until the passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage#cite_note-VRA1965-91 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage#cite_note-V...
tehjoker 5y ago
Most of them owned rather than rented their labor, but yes they did start the US with the idea of suppressing mass universal democracy, calling it mob rule.
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  What kind of ahistorical criticism is this? The US was the first modern democracy. Were they supposed to go from dictatorial monarchy to universal suffrage in one day or be condemned forever? If you want to criticize something, criticize the fact that we still don't have universal suffrage. In many states, felons can't vote. Which is cynically claimed as denying them something as punishment for their crimes, but in reality is done to prevent the victims of mass incarceration from becoming a large voting bloc to end it.
  - mbg721 5y ago
    It is true that the French Revolution and subsequent counter-revolution were not as successful as the American Revolution was, and that the non-democratic features of the American system are a major reason for that.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > that the non-democratic features of the American system are a major reason for that It's unfortunately unpopular to point out that we have ample evidence, from history and contemporaneously, that democracy per se doesn't work. It devolves into a populist, majoritarian and often authoritarian mess as reliably as (non-monarchical) dictators fall into chaos. The men who founded our Republic understood this, which is why they explicitly created a system that balances the strengths and weaknesses of monarchy, oligarchy and democracy. (Hint: they're our three branches of government.) At some point, we wrote that balance out of our cultural history, and we're partly paying the price now.
      - tehjoker 5y ago
        There are many liberal republics and socialist republics doing fine all over the world. This is just trendy neo-feudalist rhetoric. The US is dissolving due to inadequate democracy where people feel they have no control over their government or life's destiny.
Apocryphon 5y ago
Don't forget that many of Japan's large zaibatsu corporations were founded by former samurai clans during the Meiji Restoration.
bencollier49 5y ago
> Capitalism is the 2nd iteration of feudalism. The Whigs and Tories opposed each other in the UK parliament for a long time precisely because this is not the case. There is a divide in the UK Conservative Party between Tories and Liberals.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
It's not capitalism, the reason we ended up with massive accumulation of wealth (which changed shape and form across time - Rockefeller is not Zuckerberg) is because of government corruption, intervention and monopoly creation. New governments don't do anything but waste public money and create regulations which entrench the current lobbyists as the de-facto standard and prevent new competition from popping up.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  All this is done in service to the capitalists, though. A stateless capitalism would be more direct, and do away with the few silly laws remaining that stand in the way of profits.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
Capitilism and feudalism share little in common. One is a means of exchange allowing basically any government to implement it. the other is an entire philosophy and implementation of governance and interaction.

deleted 5y ago

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ben_w 5y ago

The Communist Manifesto certainly sees things that way, but I don’t think capitalism has been like that in the USA since roughly Roosevelt’s New Deal. (I don’t want to suggest this happened everywhere at the same time: weirdly, my British history lessons don’t cover anything the British did or experienced between the two World Wars other than “Chamberlain was naïve”). The iconic images of the downfall of Communism was the economic catastrophe, shops with empty shelves, etc.; Capitalism had a similar experience in the Great Depression, was changed by it, but the name remained.

kaibee 5y ago
> Capitalism had a similar experience in the Great Depression, was changed by it, but the name remained. Unfortunately a lot of those New Deal changes were reverted since then. For one, the minimum wage was supposed to be a living wage one could raise a family on.
- jason0597 5y ago
  > the minimum wage was supposed to be a living wage one could raise a family on. Do you have a source?

bcrosby95 5y ago

Hell, some states required land ownership to vote in the USA up to the 1850s.

jfk13 5y ago
> "While constitutionally given the right to vote by the Fifteenth Amendment in 1870 and 19th Amendment in 1920, the reality of the country was such that most African Americans and some poor whites could not vote until the passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage#cite_note-VRA1965-91 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage#cite_note-V...

tehjoker 5y ago

Most of them owned rather than rented their labor, but yes they did start the US with the idea of suppressing mass universal democracy, calling it mob rule.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago
What kind of ahistorical criticism is this? The US was the first modern democracy. Were they supposed to go from dictatorial monarchy to universal suffrage in one day or be condemned forever? If you want to criticize something, criticize the fact that we still don't have universal suffrage. In many states, felons can't vote. Which is cynically claimed as denying them something as punishment for their crimes, but in reality is done to prevent the victims of mass incarceration from becoming a large voting bloc to end it.
- mbg721 5y ago
  It is true that the French Revolution and subsequent counter-revolution were not as successful as the American Revolution was, and that the non-democratic features of the American system are a major reason for that.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > that the non-democratic features of the American system are a major reason for that It's unfortunately unpopular to point out that we have ample evidence, from history and contemporaneously, that democracy per se doesn't work. It devolves into a populist, majoritarian and often authoritarian mess as reliably as (non-monarchical) dictators fall into chaos. The men who founded our Republic understood this, which is why they explicitly created a system that balances the strengths and weaknesses of monarchy, oligarchy and democracy. (Hint: they're our three branches of government.) At some point, we wrote that balance out of our cultural history, and we're partly paying the price now.
    - tehjoker 5y ago
      There are many liberal republics and socialist republics doing fine all over the world. This is just trendy neo-feudalist rhetoric. The US is dissolving due to inadequate democracy where people feel they have no control over their government or life's destiny.

Apocryphon 5y ago

Don't forget that many of Japan's large zaibatsu corporations were founded by former samurai clans during the Meiji Restoration.

bencollier49 5y ago

> Capitalism is the 2nd iteration of feudalism. The Whigs and Tories opposed each other in the UK parliament for a long time precisely because this is not the case. There is a divide in the UK Conservative Party between Tories and Liberals.

jokethrowaway 5y ago

It's not capitalism, the reason we ended up with massive accumulation of wealth (which changed shape and form across time - Rockefeller is not Zuckerberg) is because of government corruption, intervention and monopoly creation. New governments don't do anything but waste public money and create regulations which entrench the current lobbyists as the de-facto standard and prevent new competition from popping up.

tsimionescu 5y ago
All this is done in service to the capitalists, though. A stateless capitalism would be more direct, and do away with the few silly laws remaining that stand in the way of profits.

stjohnswarts 5y ago

Capitilism and feudalism share little in common. One is a means of exchange allowing basically any government to implement it. the other is an entire philosophy and implementation of governance and interaction.