10 ms·

I really like this quote from the manual: <<There are a class of "ideal attractors" in engineering, concepts like "everything is an object," "homoiconicity," "

I really like this quote from the manual: <<There are a class of "ideal attractors" in engineering, concepts like "everything is an object," "homoiconicity," "purely functional," "pure capability system," etc. Engineers fall into orbit around these ideas quite easily. Systems that follow these principles often get useful properties out of the deal. However, going too far in any of these directions is also a great way to find a deep reservoir of unsolved problems, which is part of why these are popular directions in academia. In the interest of shipping, we are consciously steering around unsolved problems, even when it means we lose some attractive features.>>

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> In the interest of shipping, we are consciously steering around unsolved problems, even when it means we lose some attractive features Huh, this is more like pragmatism than "Hubris".
- steveklabnik 5y ago
  We'd like to think so, but it's really hard to convince people that writing an entire new OS in Rust is the pragmatic choice. The name is a good reminder of the balance there, in my humble opinion.
  - bcantrill 5y ago
    To which I would add that naming a system "Pragmatic" may well be an act of unspeakable hubris, one that the gods would surely punish with a plague of architectural astronauts...
    - bigdict 5y ago
      Haha, pulling a bit of reverse psychology there?
  - posnet 5y ago
    Memento Mori
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  "Hubris" is supposed to be a name, not a description.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    But names are often (supposed to be) descriptive. At least originally; then the thing so named may drift away from what it originally was (intended to be). Or sometimes the name is self-depreciatingly ironic / sarcastic, which I'd guess was the case here. So kind of "descriptive-but-in-reverse".
mwcampbell 5y ago
I wonder if the attributes of Hubris and similar systems -- real-time, lack of dynamism -- will become "ideal attractors" for developers not working in problem domains where these things are absolutely required, especially as the backlash against the complexity at higher layers of the software stack continues to grow. In other words, I wonder if a sizable number of developers will convince themselves that they need an embedded RTOS like Hubris for a project where Linux running on an off-the-shelf SBC (or even PC) would work well enough.
- melony 5y ago
  Right now we are going in the opposite direction. Web developers on HN refuse to learn proper embedded programming, and instead stack abstraction on top of abstraction with MicroPython and using Raspberry Pis for every job under the sun. It is a shame that Arduino/AVR never bothered implementing support for the full C++ library. If the full power of C++ is available to the end user, then perhaps alternatives like MicroPython would be less attractive.
  - mwcampbell 5y ago
    Sure, that's happening, but some of us are also tempted to use Rust for applications where an easier to learn, more popular language would be good enough.
    - eof 5y ago
      This doesn’t seem like an apt comparison. Using the wrong tool for the job is expensive forever; learning a tough language pays dividends forever.
  - tartoran 5y ago
    I think MicroPython is a boon to beginners in the space. They have the option to go deeper when the projects run into limitations.
    - curryst 5y ago

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

> In the interest of shipping, we are consciously steering around unsolved problems, even when it means we lose some attractive features Huh, this is more like pragmatism than "Hubris".

steveklabnik 5y ago
We'd like to think so, but it's really hard to convince people that writing an entire new OS in Rust is the pragmatic choice. The name is a good reminder of the balance there, in my humble opinion.
- bcantrill 5y ago
  To which I would add that naming a system "Pragmatic" may well be an act of unspeakable hubris, one that the gods would surely punish with a plague of architectural astronauts...
  - bigdict 5y ago
    Haha, pulling a bit of reverse psychology there?
- posnet 5y ago
  Memento Mori
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
"Hubris" is supposed to be a name, not a description.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  But names are often (supposed to be) descriptive. At least originally; then the thing so named may drift away from what it originally was (intended to be). Or sometimes the name is self-depreciatingly ironic / sarcastic, which I'd guess was the case here. So kind of "descriptive-but-in-reverse".

mwcampbell 5y ago

I wonder if the attributes of Hubris and similar systems -- real-time, lack of dynamism -- will become "ideal attractors" for developers not working in problem domains where these things are absolutely required, especially as the backlash against the complexity at higher layers of the software stack continues to grow. In other words, I wonder if a sizable number of developers will convince themselves that they need an embedded RTOS like Hubris for a project where Linux running on an off-the-shelf SBC (or even PC) would work well enough.

melony 5y ago
Right now we are going in the opposite direction. Web developers on HN refuse to learn proper embedded programming, and instead stack abstraction on top of abstraction with MicroPython and using Raspberry Pis for every job under the sun. It is a shame that Arduino/AVR never bothered implementing support for the full C++ library. If the full power of C++ is available to the end user, then perhaps alternatives like MicroPython would be less attractive.
- mwcampbell 5y ago
  Sure, that's happening, but some of us are also tempted to use Rust for applications where an easier to learn, more popular language would be good enough.
  - eof 5y ago
    This doesn’t seem like an apt comparison. Using the wrong tool for the job is expensive forever; learning a tough language pays dividends forever.
- tartoran 5y ago
  I think MicroPython is a boon to beginners in the space. They have the option to go deeper when the projects run into limitations.
  - curryst 5y ago