4 ms·

As someone who never owned a car or drivers license, and who has been cycling for her whole life: no, thousands of euros for a regular bicycle is not normal.

globular-toast 5y ago
I didn't say thousands actually (also specifically said it wasn't normal). It's just that I own a fairly mid-high end road bike (that I bought 10 years ago) that cost more than €1000. I used to ride a road bike that cost around €800 as my commuter bike until it got stolen. The quality at this price point is definitely worth it, with diminishing returns above it. I would strongly recommend upgrading to a road or town bike at this price point as it's such a huge improvement and will last you decades.
- kuschku 5y ago
  I’d honestly consider 800€ already enthusiast grade, but I’m interested. What does your 800€ bicycle have that mine doesn’t have? For reference, I’m currently using https://www.boc24.de/p/bocas-bari-trapez/217333/ https://www.boc24.de/p/bocas-bari-trapez/217333/ (which I bought at 320€ on sale) with some changes (B&M 100 lux front light, seat post with suspension), and I don’t think I’d get any major improvements with other changes. Due to cycling in city traffic, I need to be able to instantly switch gears at standstill, so a derailleur would be a downgrade compared to the hub gearing I’ve got, and upgraded hub dynamos would bring me just 2-5% more performance, which isn’t really useful.
  - globular-toast 5y ago
    Yours isn't a low end bike and this might be the price point for you if you aren't enthusiastic about it at all. I don't know a lot about town bikes, though. I prefer road bikes (even for commuting and getting around town with panniers). Higher end bikes don't have any "features" that yours doesn't have. But you could also spend half as much as you did and still get the same features. Higher price points get you lightness and stiffness. This translates into speed or less effort, depending on your preference. You also get higher quality components that will last a long time or you can swap out and sell if you wish. Low end bikes tend to be disposed of as a unit as they are not worth taking apart.
    - kuschku 5y ago
      But what’s that gonna provide for me? There’s diminishing returns beyond this point, the efficiency gains are in the single digit percentages or often only placebo effects, and I’ve never even seen a bicycle that stopped being used out of old age. A new coat of paint every decade or two, replacing the tires and brake pads every two years, and maybe the chain every decade, and it’ll run forever. I feel like it’s just like people buying expensive sports cars, purely because they can, not because they actually need any of it.
      - snovv_crash 5y ago
        Lighter bikes are more comfortable to ride - they feel nimble. Modern frames absorb bumps while still being stiff to allow maximum leg power to actually go through the drivetrain instead of frame flex. Disc brakes make an enormous difference if you have long downhill sections or regularly ride in the wet. Sure there are diminishing returns, but better components really are better, and not just 20g lighter. High end derailers shift easier, chains have lower friction (especially in high/low gears), spokes and rims are more aerodynamic and stiffer, ratchets have smaller engagement angles, brakes require less force and don't overheat, tyres have lower rolling resistance and better grip, seat posts have compliance to remove chatter etc., And this is before you get into eg. MTB specific features like chain clutches and suspension tuning, or for triathlon aero bars, for city bikes pannier clips and built in lights, etc
      - tjr225 5y ago
        > But what’s that gonna provide for me? Nothing. Bike manufacturers and smaller builders are not trying to sell these bikes to you or to people like you. How hard is it to enjoy your "normal bike" and move on? Some people ride their bicycles for thousands to tens of thousands of miles per year. They're going to buy what they want so that when they do ride, they enjoy it.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    > What does your 800€ bicycle have that mine doesn’t have? For that much money, you could afford... a Rohloff hub? No frame though
  - ufmace 5y ago
    IMO, most of the real improvements are seen going from $300-ish to $1200-ish. Going higher doesn't give you more features so much as more quality and durability. In my experience, if you ride a lot of miles consistently on a cheap bike, parts will wear out or break pretty fast. Especially if the terrain is at least mildly rough, as found on most commutes and country roads. Cheap wheels go out of true easily and before long are often too bent to be able to true by spoke adjustments. Cheap tires wear out fast and puncture easily. Cheap brakes wear out and go out of adjustment fast. Ditto cheap shift gear. I've broken pedals too, and I don't pedal all that aggressively. Really cheap stuff tends to be excessively heavy too, which can be a drag on uphills and when you need to carry it. Yours looks like a perfectly fine commuter bike to me. I'm not familiar with the wheel or shift gear classes, but if it gets you where you need to go without wearing stuff out too fast, by all means no need to spend more.
usrusr 5y ago
Meanwhile, for enthusiast bikes, 10k€ has stopped being exotic. I do blame it on e-bikes, because enthusiasts will happily pay whatever is required to distance themselves from whatever the average consumer does.
- kuschku 5y ago
  It’s honestly entirely foreign to me, I grew up in an environment where everyone cycled, but that meant most bikes were somewhere between omafiets (old, used bikes) and very cheap mass produced bikes. To me a bicycle is a mode of transportation, not a sports device or a lifestyle product. What would they even do with such a bike?
  - pjc50 5y ago
    Like NFTs, the important question is not "what can you do with it" but "how much did you spend on it". It's a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good
    - usrusr 5y ago
      At last those bikes are clearly in the subset of veblen goods where you need more than just cash to gain the status. A bike not ridden "adequately" (whatever that means) is like owning art without even pretending to know something about the art in question. You could do it as a provocative statement, but that would get old quickly.
  - usrusr 5y ago
    Certainly not ride it to the grocery store. Why do golfers by golf clubs? Not for the grocery store. And yachts aren't routinely used for sailing to the office either. The big lure of the enthusiast bike is doing things because you can. In a good year I can do rides for hundreds of kilometers in a day, I certainly wouldn't want to do that on my omafiets (which is just fine for anything <5km). 2020 was the first year in ages that I haven't crossed the Alps at least once. And sure, you don't need a bike costing 10k for that, in fact as it happens the bike I prefer for those occasions is the cheapest of the enthusiast bikes that I own, but that's beside the point. How many people do you own that drive a car that costs 10000 more than the cheapest car that would be perfectly adequate for the driving they do? Chances are most of them don't even consider themselves car enthusiasts!

globular-toast 5y ago

I didn't say thousands actually (also specifically said it wasn't normal). It's just that I own a fairly mid-high end road bike (that I bought 10 years ago) that cost more than €1000. I used to ride a road bike that cost around €800 as my commuter bike until it got stolen. The quality at this price point is definitely worth it, with diminishing returns above it. I would strongly recommend upgrading to a road or town bike at this price point as it's such a huge improvement and will last you decades.

kuschku 5y ago
I’d honestly consider 800€ already enthusiast grade, but I’m interested. What does your 800€ bicycle have that mine doesn’t have? For reference, I’m currently using https://www.boc24.de/p/bocas-bari-trapez/217333/ https://www.boc24.de/p/bocas-bari-trapez/217333/ (which I bought at 320€ on sale) with some changes (B&M 100 lux front light, seat post with suspension), and I don’t think I’d get any major improvements with other changes. Due to cycling in city traffic, I need to be able to instantly switch gears at standstill, so a derailleur would be a downgrade compared to the hub gearing I’ve got, and upgraded hub dynamos would bring me just 2-5% more performance, which isn’t really useful.
- globular-toast 5y ago
  Yours isn't a low end bike and this might be the price point for you if you aren't enthusiastic about it at all. I don't know a lot about town bikes, though. I prefer road bikes (even for commuting and getting around town with panniers). Higher end bikes don't have any "features" that yours doesn't have. But you could also spend half as much as you did and still get the same features. Higher price points get you lightness and stiffness. This translates into speed or less effort, depending on your preference. You also get higher quality components that will last a long time or you can swap out and sell if you wish. Low end bikes tend to be disposed of as a unit as they are not worth taking apart.
  - kuschku 5y ago
    But what’s that gonna provide for me? There’s diminishing returns beyond this point, the efficiency gains are in the single digit percentages or often only placebo effects, and I’ve never even seen a bicycle that stopped being used out of old age. A new coat of paint every decade or two, replacing the tires and brake pads every two years, and maybe the chain every decade, and it’ll run forever. I feel like it’s just like people buying expensive sports cars, purely because they can, not because they actually need any of it.
    - snovv_crash 5y ago
      Lighter bikes are more comfortable to ride - they feel nimble. Modern frames absorb bumps while still being stiff to allow maximum leg power to actually go through the drivetrain instead of frame flex. Disc brakes make an enormous difference if you have long downhill sections or regularly ride in the wet. Sure there are diminishing returns, but better components really are better, and not just 20g lighter. High end derailers shift easier, chains have lower friction (especially in high/low gears), spokes and rims are more aerodynamic and stiffer, ratchets have smaller engagement angles, brakes require less force and don't overheat, tyres have lower rolling resistance and better grip, seat posts have compliance to remove chatter etc., And this is before you get into eg. MTB specific features like chain clutches and suspension tuning, or for triathlon aero bars, for city bikes pannier clips and built in lights, etc
    - tjr225 5y ago
      > But what’s that gonna provide for me? Nothing. Bike manufacturers and smaller builders are not trying to sell these bikes to you or to people like you. How hard is it to enjoy your "normal bike" and move on? Some people ride their bicycles for thousands to tens of thousands of miles per year. They're going to buy what they want so that when they do ride, they enjoy it.
- klyrs 5y ago
  > What does your 800€ bicycle have that mine doesn’t have? For that much money, you could afford... a Rohloff hub? No frame though
- ufmace 5y ago
  IMO, most of the real improvements are seen going from $300-ish to $1200-ish. Going higher doesn't give you more features so much as more quality and durability. In my experience, if you ride a lot of miles consistently on a cheap bike, parts will wear out or break pretty fast. Especially if the terrain is at least mildly rough, as found on most commutes and country roads. Cheap wheels go out of true easily and before long are often too bent to be able to true by spoke adjustments. Cheap tires wear out fast and puncture easily. Cheap brakes wear out and go out of adjustment fast. Ditto cheap shift gear. I've broken pedals too, and I don't pedal all that aggressively. Really cheap stuff tends to be excessively heavy too, which can be a drag on uphills and when you need to carry it. Yours looks like a perfectly fine commuter bike to me. I'm not familiar with the wheel or shift gear classes, but if it gets you where you need to go without wearing stuff out too fast, by all means no need to spend more.

usrusr 5y ago

Meanwhile, for enthusiast bikes, 10k€ has stopped being exotic. I do blame it on e-bikes, because enthusiasts will happily pay whatever is required to distance themselves from whatever the average consumer does.

kuschku 5y ago
It’s honestly entirely foreign to me, I grew up in an environment where everyone cycled, but that meant most bikes were somewhere between omafiets (old, used bikes) and very cheap mass produced bikes. To me a bicycle is a mode of transportation, not a sports device or a lifestyle product. What would they even do with such a bike?
- pjc50 5y ago
  Like NFTs, the important question is not "what can you do with it" but "how much did you spend on it". It's a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good
  - usrusr 5y ago
    At last those bikes are clearly in the subset of veblen goods where you need more than just cash to gain the status. A bike not ridden "adequately" (whatever that means) is like owning art without even pretending to know something about the art in question. You could do it as a provocative statement, but that would get old quickly.
- usrusr 5y ago
  Certainly not ride it to the grocery store. Why do golfers by golf clubs? Not for the grocery store. And yachts aren't routinely used for sailing to the office either. The big lure of the enthusiast bike is doing things because you can. In a good year I can do rides for hundreds of kilometers in a day, I certainly wouldn't want to do that on my omafiets (which is just fine for anything <5km). 2020 was the first year in ages that I haven't crossed the Alps at least once. And sure, you don't need a bike costing 10k for that, in fact as it happens the bike I prefer for those occasions is the cheapest of the enthusiast bikes that I own, but that's beside the point. How many people do you own that drive a car that costs 10000 more than the cheapest car that would be perfectly adequate for the driving they do? Chances are most of them don't even consider themselves car enthusiasts!