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Though I've seen it a hundred and more times, I'm always a little surprised to see this community completely miss the point of artistic works that challenge ine

Though I've seen it a hundred and more times, I'm always a little surprised to see this community completely miss the point of artistic works that challenge inequality. Y'all seem to think that we're in some kind of meritocracy, that predatory capitalism isn't centrally planned, that you earned your position in society and so everyone who's poor just isn't working hard or smart enough... And even after watching a show that makes the point in as simplistic a metaphor as you could wish for; even after reading an article that breaks the metaphor down precisely and makes it abundantly clear, there's still people in this thread saying "I don't understand the appeal", "it's just brutality and shock value", "if you can watch this you're rich and who it's aimed at", "pfft, this is a ripoff of [obscure manga]"... How can smart people miss the point so completely? It's simple, but still surprises me almost every time - "“Never argue with a man whose job depends on not being convinced.”

subjectsigma 5y ago
You're conflating different people's comments. From reading the thread, people expressing opinions described in your second paragraph are not also expressing opinions described in your third paragraph. The show can have a good message and also have bad writing/be derivative/etc.
Sebb767 5y ago
> Y'all seem to think that we're in some kind of meritocracy, that predatory capitalism isn't centrally planned, that you earned your position in society and so everyone who's poor just isn't working hard or smart enough... Not everything is perfect, but we're not living in a dictatorship yet. Sure, some poor people don't have a chance and the closer you are to money, the easier it gets, but it's not like it's all on the system. There are also quite a few capitalist countries other than the US, with less problems. > there's still people in this thread saying "I don't understand the appeal", "it's just brutality and shock value", "if you can watch this you're rich and who it's aimed at", "pfft, this is a ripoff of [obscure manga]"... I agree that squid game can be interpreted that way. But let's be real here, there's massive amounts of gore in there and it's portrayed extensively, far beyond where it would be necessary to make a point. And I'm pretty sure that a lot of people watch it mostly for that and for the crime story, not the implied portrayal of society. You can see it in there, but squid game is mass market first, social critique second.
- mandmandam 5y ago
  > Not everything is perfect, but we're not living in a dictatorship yet. There's 'not perfect', and then there's us... We've got sanctioned torture, an oligarch class, perpetual war, unaccountable surveillance, black sites, executive orders, secret courts, silencing, detention and torture of foreign journalists, and record inequality. And that's in our own country - we do much worse to South America, Africa, the Middle East. Have done for hundreds of years. We even threaten and surveil European groups and leaders without (immediate) consequence. > squid game is mass market first, social critique second. So what? If it were social critique first people would be complaining that it's too political. I've overheard people discussing social inequality in the grocery store because of this show, and I fucking love it for that.
  - Sebb767 5y ago
    > There's 'not perfect', and then there's us... We've got sanctioned torture, an oligarch class, perpetual war, unaccountable surveillance, black sites, executive orders, secret courts, silencing, detention and torture of foreign journalists, and record inequality. > And that's in our own country - we do much worse to South America, Africa, the Middle East. Have done for hundreds of years. We even threaten and surveil European groups and leaders without (immediate) consequence. Well, I'm not going to defend these actions, but there are arguably worse actors. My point is, it's not like it's as bad as it could be (especially historically), so the "obvious" point of it being horrible really depends on the perspective. Which is not to say that the situation should not improve! > So what? If it were social critique first people would be complaining that it's too political. I've overheard people discussing social inequality in the grocery store because of this show, and I fucking love it for that. Which is cool! My point is, given the graphic violence and it's focus on that, it's quite easy to miss the deeper social point in it and/or argue that this is just trying to read some meaning into a snuff film. I agree with you that it's good, but it's not like the people writing it off don't have a point.
mypastself 5y ago
Not sure what you’re arguing against here. A piece of fiction can have a strong moral point of view and still be of poor quality. The righteousness of message doesn’t instantly make the messenger appealing.
lexapro 5y ago
>How can smart people miss the point so completely? They want to miss it so badly, it's simple cognitive dissonance. Some people don't want to accept that they had luck while others didn't. They have successfully convinced themselves that we are not all equals, that somehow there are people who are more deserving.
SuoDuanDao 5y ago
Speaking only for myself... It's not that I'm wilfully blind to the flaws of the system I live in. It's that the overwhelming majority of people who offer critique offer absolutely nothing in the way of workable solutions. If the public intellectuals who came up with the doughnut economy, teal society, or the Rojavan system were having a talk in my town, I'd be very interested in going. But note that these people actually created something and spend very little time cataloguing flaws of the things they're seeking to replace. Nearly anyone can critique a thing that exists, and people who do nothing but criticise tend to rub everyone the wrong way. More insidiously, there are often class interests at work motivating the criticisms or denials of meritocracy, and most people who enjoy having the chance to make a positive contribution to the world view that particular class with an extreme suspicion and often well-earned hostility. If you'd really like to understand how the other side thinks, I'd recommend this essay: https://thearchdruidreport-archive.200605.xyz/2016/01/donald-trump-and-politics-of-resentment.html https://thearchdruidreport-archive.200605.xyz/2016/01/donald...
- mandmandam 5y ago
  I'd love to see more focus on solutions, but there are _huge_ numbers of people who don't (or won't) even recognize that there are problems; and that recognition is step one. The public intellectuals and concepts you mention may be known in your bubble, but they are not popular or talked about. It's insane that with all of our gains in productivity the last hundred years Americans are working two or three jobs just to survive. That's fucking bananas. Cloaking that in dry academic discussion may work for you, but it clearly isn't having a big cultural impact. Squid Game touched a nerve. People know that that we're all getting screwed. And it's not just America, clearly. Neoliberals all over the world are strip mining the common good, at our expense and at the expense of our descendants. So let's not shit on media that at least gets people talking about systemic inequality, while also actually managing to be popular. That's an accomplishment, and to be praised.
  - Rury 5y ago
    Sadly, I don't think there is a solution to be had (otherwise politics wouldn't a thing). Nature is just simply brutal. I think Hobbe's arguments presented in his "Leviathan" perhaps makes it most apparent, and with a little thought experiment, you can easily see how impossible a meritocracy is, as it totally relies on a unified will for it to work.

subjectsigma 5y ago

You're conflating different people's comments. From reading the thread, people expressing opinions described in your second paragraph are not also expressing opinions described in your third paragraph. The show can have a good message and also have bad writing/be derivative/etc.

Sebb767 5y ago

> Y'all seem to think that we're in some kind of meritocracy, that predatory capitalism isn't centrally planned, that you earned your position in society and so everyone who's poor just isn't working hard or smart enough... Not everything is perfect, but we're not living in a dictatorship yet. Sure, some poor people don't have a chance and the closer you are to money, the easier it gets, but it's not like it's all on the system. There are also quite a few capitalist countries other than the US, with less problems. > there's still people in this thread saying "I don't understand the appeal", "it's just brutality and shock value", "if you can watch this you're rich and who it's aimed at", "pfft, this is a ripoff of [obscure manga]"... I agree that squid game can be interpreted that way. But let's be real here, there's massive amounts of gore in there and it's portrayed extensively, far beyond where it would be necessary to make a point. And I'm pretty sure that a lot of people watch it mostly for that and for the crime story, not the implied portrayal of society. You can see it in there, but squid game is mass market first, social critique second.

mandmandam 5y ago
> Not everything is perfect, but we're not living in a dictatorship yet. There's 'not perfect', and then there's us... We've got sanctioned torture, an oligarch class, perpetual war, unaccountable surveillance, black sites, executive orders, secret courts, silencing, detention and torture of foreign journalists, and record inequality. And that's in our own country - we do much worse to South America, Africa, the Middle East. Have done for hundreds of years. We even threaten and surveil European groups and leaders without (immediate) consequence. > squid game is mass market first, social critique second. So what? If it were social critique first people would be complaining that it's too political. I've overheard people discussing social inequality in the grocery store because of this show, and I fucking love it for that.
- Sebb767 5y ago
  > There's 'not perfect', and then there's us... We've got sanctioned torture, an oligarch class, perpetual war, unaccountable surveillance, black sites, executive orders, secret courts, silencing, detention and torture of foreign journalists, and record inequality. > And that's in our own country - we do much worse to South America, Africa, the Middle East. Have done for hundreds of years. We even threaten and surveil European groups and leaders without (immediate) consequence. Well, I'm not going to defend these actions, but there are arguably worse actors. My point is, it's not like it's as bad as it could be (especially historically), so the "obvious" point of it being horrible really depends on the perspective. Which is not to say that the situation should not improve! > So what? If it were social critique first people would be complaining that it's too political. I've overheard people discussing social inequality in the grocery store because of this show, and I fucking love it for that. Which is cool! My point is, given the graphic violence and it's focus on that, it's quite easy to miss the deeper social point in it and/or argue that this is just trying to read some meaning into a snuff film. I agree with you that it's good, but it's not like the people writing it off don't have a point.

mypastself 5y ago

Not sure what you’re arguing against here. A piece of fiction can have a strong moral point of view and still be of poor quality. The righteousness of message doesn’t instantly make the messenger appealing.

lexapro 5y ago

>How can smart people miss the point so completely? They want to miss it so badly, it's simple cognitive dissonance. Some people don't want to accept that they had luck while others didn't. They have successfully convinced themselves that we are not all equals, that somehow there are people who are more deserving.

SuoDuanDao 5y ago

Speaking only for myself... It's not that I'm wilfully blind to the flaws of the system I live in. It's that the overwhelming majority of people who offer critique offer absolutely nothing in the way of workable solutions. If the public intellectuals who came up with the doughnut economy, teal society, or the Rojavan system were having a talk in my town, I'd be very interested in going. But note that these people actually created something and spend very little time cataloguing flaws of the things they're seeking to replace. Nearly anyone can critique a thing that exists, and people who do nothing but criticise tend to rub everyone the wrong way. More insidiously, there are often class interests at work motivating the criticisms or denials of meritocracy, and most people who enjoy having the chance to make a positive contribution to the world view that particular class with an extreme suspicion and often well-earned hostility. If you'd really like to understand how the other side thinks, I'd recommend this essay: https://thearchdruidreport-archive.200605.xyz/2016/01/donald-trump-and-politics-of-resentment.html https://thearchdruidreport-archive.200605.xyz/2016/01/donald...

mandmandam 5y ago
I'd love to see more focus on solutions, but there are _huge_ numbers of people who don't (or won't) even recognize that there are problems; and that recognition is step one. The public intellectuals and concepts you mention may be known in your bubble, but they are not popular or talked about. It's insane that with all of our gains in productivity the last hundred years Americans are working two or three jobs just to survive. That's fucking bananas. Cloaking that in dry academic discussion may work for you, but it clearly isn't having a big cultural impact. Squid Game touched a nerve. People know that that we're all getting screwed. And it's not just America, clearly. Neoliberals all over the world are strip mining the common good, at our expense and at the expense of our descendants. So let's not shit on media that at least gets people talking about systemic inequality, while also actually managing to be popular. That's an accomplishment, and to be praised.
- Rury 5y ago
  Sadly, I don't think there is a solution to be had (otherwise politics wouldn't a thing). Nature is just simply brutal. I think Hobbe's arguments presented in his "Leviathan" perhaps makes it most apparent, and with a little thought experiment, you can easily see how impossible a meritocracy is, as it totally relies on a unified will for it to work.