8 ms·

That does not seem to pass the smell test for me. Do we see a greater percentage of entrepreneurs from Canada or Europe than from the US? I didn't look up hard

by belval 5y ago

That does not seem to pass the smell test for me. Do we see a greater percentage of entrepreneurs from Canada or Europe than from the US? I didn't look up hard numbers but I doubt it.

newshorts 5y ago
Anecdotally, healthcare benefits did factor in to my decision making when I thought about opening my own shop. I have two small kids and decided at this point in my life I’m going to stay put instead of starting something.
zz865 5y ago
Agreed it seems a paradox. Maybe it really is socialism kills entrepreneurial spirit. If you can be an artist or a 35hr/wk public servant and live well, why bother being an entrepreneur?
- mcv 5y ago
  > If you can be an artist or a 35hr/wk public servant and live well, why bother being an entrepreneur? Maybe because I don't want to be a public servant? I mean, it's important work that needs to be done, but the impression I get from my wife is that it involves a lot of bureaucracy. If we had a basic income or something like that, it would be much easier to take the risk to become an entrepreneur.
- belval 5y ago
  My take is that there is a whole culture side of things to consider. Some cultures will have a higher general opinion of entrepreneurs than others. In Quebec, Canada you still see a lot of that mindset where a successful entrepreneur is more associated with a slimy businessman than a smart person. It's slowly changing however.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > In Quebec, Canada you still see a lot of that mindset where a successful entrepreneur is more associated with a slimy businessman than a smart person. Historically, didn't the employees speak French and the bosses English? From what I understood, there was very much a glass ceiling and discrimination, similar to what was going on here in the south. Capital wouldn't be loaned across ethnic lines for instance. That might contribute to the perception of entrepreneurs being shady: they historically were there to fleece the locals, not build and prosper.
ipv6ipv4 5y ago
Israel
- belval 5y ago
  Does Israel have a lot of startups because of free healthcare or simply because it benefits from a culture that encourages startups? They also have a higher average education level which probably helps to some extent. No saying that healthcare is not a factor, I just doubt that the parent's explanation that free healthcare is holding back would-be entrepreneurs is well-founded.
softwaredoug 5y ago
It would be really hard to pin the causality of something like this... some of the most 'entrepreneurial' places in the US are some of the 'bluest' areas
- bobthechef 5y ago
  Right, but this correlation with "blueness" is, I think, accidental and doesn't account for small businesses. For example, I would expect more small local businesses in red states than blue states. The tech sector will favor large corporations because of the magnitude of investment involved, at least traditionally (if we are to believe the "economies of scale" explanation; some challenge it, but at the very least, it is causally relevant). So you might see more startup entrepreneurship in blue states because that's where the tech expertise is already concentrated. And because those in tech tend to have college degrees at higher rates, and colleges tend to encourage neoliberal and left-leaning views, you should expect to see more tech in blue states because of that, so you have a self-reinforcing process (there are of course other considerations). But I wouldn't attribute entrepreneurship to the presence of social programs. On the one hand, those who need social programs are not going to be very educated and are most likely going to be much more interested in making basic ends meet over some business venture. On the other hand, once they receive social benefits, they are often not very motivated to try to start a small local business like a food cart either since they have food on the table. So you need to appeal to cultural factors to account for motivation as well.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  > some of the most 'entrepreneurial' places in the US are some of the 'bluest' areas I'm not sure how you reach this conclusion. "Screw this I'm starting my own business" is far, far more common in the blue collar world than the white collar world and they tend to vote way redder.
  - softwaredoug 5y ago
    You could be right, I am thinking of California, but that's a very tech-centric position and I admit to my bias.
pbourke 5y ago
> Do we see a greater percentage of entrepreneurs from Canada or Europe than from the US? Yes, if one uses self-employment as a proxy for entrepreneurship. The US trails Canada and Western European countries in self employment as a percentage of the labour force. https://data.oecd.org/chart/6xG6 https://data.oecd.org/chart/6xG6 Edit: the US has the lowest rate in this OECD dataset.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  How much of that, especially in Europe, is simply a way to bypass the ever increasing burden of regulations around employment?
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    Close to none. Companies love to have employees.
  - fnord77 5y ago
    In Sweden, many software engineers work as contract engineers for better pay. Salaries for hired software engineers in Europe are dismal.
    - bilekas 5y ago
      > Salaries for hired software engineers in Europe are dismal I strongly disagree, it might be all relative of course, but dismal is not a word that would even come close.
      - mcv 5y ago
        No, they're still solid jobs compared to what lots of other people get paid. But managers and other corporate types still get paid a lot more. And self-employed, you can also get paid that much, just not as an employee.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
bobthechef 5y ago
Right, you'd have to back this up with numbers, but if startups are considered, the US outstrips everyone else, certainly in the West. The story is going to be more complicated. Ethos is an important factor. Some countries have cultures that are prohibitive or discouraging for entrepreneurs or encourage safety and comfort over risky pursuits, and working for a large corp is going to be more compatible with that than risking your neck to run your own business. I suspect countries that have national health care are going to correlate strongly with those which are risk averse and therefore less entrepreneurial.
Swizec 5y ago
> Do we see a greater percentage of entrepreneurs from Canada or Europe than from the US? Don't know about Canada, but in my neck of Europe (Slovenia) it seems everyone who is ambitious defaults to entrepreneurship. Because it's the only way to advance or get anywhere interesting at all. And almost everyone has a sidehustle or two. To the point that a while back the government had to crack down on sidehustling and associated grey economy. Laws like not being allowed to "help your neighbors" build a house. Now I live in San Francisco and the entrepreneurship spirit is much less. Tech just pays far too well for most people to faff around starting their own thing. To quote a friend of mine "Dude, I'd be stupid to start a company right now! Have you seen how much companies will pay for my skills? wow"
Scalestein 5y ago
I think there really is something in American culture that fuels entrepreneurship. Maybe it's the puritan and "prosperity gospel" roots. It would be interesting to see a comparison of entrepreneurship between US and Canada in the early 1900s before health care and especially job sponsored health care were so common.
- selectodude 5y ago
  >Maybe it's the puritan and "prosperity gospel" roots. No, the puritans (and Europeans in general) considered bankruptcy a moral failing and it was punished with societal banishment and prison. The United States invented modern bankruptcy law. States have taken it a step further and protected most major assets from being seized in a bankruptcy (house, car, certain amounts of cash), so the absolute worst case from failing is that you dust yourself off, wait a few years and try again. It's just part of the culture now.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  There's also the fact that, in America anyone/any family can make it and even become president/senator. It's by the American people and for the American people. Just look at the Kennedys. In Canada, you look at the country's history and even its current head of state and... it's a foreign non-elected monarch. The other head of state is non-elected as well and is supposed to be a representative of the crown. Same thing for their senate, all nominated. Even until recently, the highest court of the country was... in London! That would simply be unthinkable in America. This kind of things permeate aspects of life; there is this notion that there is a natural order of things and that people are born into certain roles. And it also seems true in the business world; Banking and Telecom, for instance, are fiercely protected and have an almost impossible moat to surmount for a competitor to come and disrupt the market.
MattGaiser 5y ago
Canada at least is an extremely risk averse place. I can’t even get people up here to try new startups that Americans will download and try at the first suggestion.
- EForEndeavour 5y ago
  How nationally representative and/or comparable are your samples of Canadian and American people?
- ikr678 5y ago
  Is that risk aversion, or something else though? I find Americans much more primed to consume and try new products.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    It is just one example. There are numerous. Canadians have a pastime of whining about our Big 5 banks. Nobody ever switches to another bank. Same with telecom. We complain about the prices. Nobody tries their competitors like Freedom. I hear stories of students joining startups in the USA over FAANG. Here many people do startups to boost their resumes for big company jobs (I was part of a startup accelerator where a lot of people were resume building). I know people doing this now. Building startups to be more employable by Amazon.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    > I find Americans much more primed to consume and try new products. Well, yes. Because Americans aren't very risk averse, and are pretty strongly novelty-seeking.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > Canada at least is an extremely risk averse place. That also seems to be the case for investments. Everything seems to be centered around "safe" businesses with proven track record or just real estate. There's no VC putting money on a crazy idea (and they getting a home run one time out of 10).
chiefalchemist 5y ago
> Do we see a greater percentage of entrepreneurs from Canada or Europe than from the US? Different cultures. Different mindsets towards entrepreneurship and individuality. It shouldn't pass the smell test as you're smelling three different things :)
micromacrofoot 5y ago
Anecdotally, I’ve kept multiple jobs longer than I’ve wanted because they had good health insurance… I also switched jobs to have kids using better insurance
Spooky23 5y ago
Startups are not the only entrepreneurial business. Running a small business like a store, farm, etc without a spouse that carries the insurance is insane. Even businesses like bars and restaurants over time have tipped to larger or even public companies. When I was a 1099 consultant, I had a heath issue that would have bankrupted us if my wife wasn’t working for a municipal government with good insurance. You see more of these types of businesses in Europe.
- geerlingguy 5y ago
  I can say that my health insurance (as an independent worker with Healthcare.gov plan) costs more than my home mortgage and utilities combined. A significant amount more; and I still pay down a $10,000 deductible on top of that before any reimbursement kicks in.
  - PopAlongKid 5y ago
    Even as anecdata, I see a few issues with this comparison. For one, part of your mortgage payment is simply a repayment of loan principal, which is not a cost of living. Only the interest portion might be considered a legitimate household expense. Second, with a $10K deductible, it sounds like you have a HDHP (high deductible health plan), of which the main feature is lower premiums, and also the ability to fund an HSA (health savings account) for additional tax savings. Even with your deductible, a wide variety of basic and preventive health services are available for free to you under ACA's minimum essential coverage provision. For example, see this list [0] for all adults, along with a similar ones specifically for women and children. [0] https://www.healthcare.gov/preventive-care-adults/ https://www.healthcare.gov/preventive-care-adults/
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  Owning property and being a landlord is a business. The only difference is you file your taxes separately and YOU don't own the property.
dsizzle 5y ago
Another axis to look at is the US over time (which also has less confounding with other differences across cultures). Looking at the graphs in the article, it appears Obamacare may have stopped the decline in self-employed workers. And since Obamacare started, the number of (likely) business applications increased steadily, doubling over 10 years. Unfortunately that graph doesn't go back in time far enough to determine if that's a deviation from a previous trend or not (it looks like it was increasing at a similar rate just before), but it's at least consistent with Obamacare helping slightly. What's more striking is the 50% jump in business applications around the time of covid. Maybe that's in part due to stimulus?
guiomie 5y ago
Does it matter what we see in Canada our Europe? I wouldn't surprised the USA has a highest percentage of entrepreneurs because of multitude of other reasons than healthcare such as capital, regulations and values/spirit. I also believe free healthcare would decrease the barrier to entry to starting a company, it would make the USA an even bigger entrepeneur centric country. Now, would the USA be better with universal healthcare in general, I am not sure. I live in the USA (almost 6 years), born, studied and worked 6 years in Canada.
- teeray 5y ago
  > Does it matter what we see in Canada our Europe? Well yeah… if we’re going to repeat the same thing and expect to see a certain outcome, we had better see that outcome where this has already been implemented. It’s the closest thing to a crystal ball that we’re going to get.
vadym909 5y ago
The base hurdle to be entrepreneur w family is $2.5-5k rent + $2k health for family + food and clothing per month- just to break even.
mrfusion 5y ago
I think it’s simply confounded by all the other regulations those countries have.
TulliusCicero 5y ago
It's not the only factor: Americans culturally value entrepeneurship very strongly. People love the idea of being your own boss or starting your own business, and telling friends that you plan to do this will generally garner positive comments (often times even if you fail).

by belval 5y ago

That does not seem to pass the smell test for me. Do we see a greater percentage of entrepreneurs from Canada or Europe than from the US? I didn't look up hard numbers but I doubt it.

newshorts 5y ago

Anecdotally, healthcare benefits did factor in to my decision making when I thought about opening my own shop. I have two small kids and decided at this point in my life I’m going to stay put instead of starting something.

zz865 5y ago

Agreed it seems a paradox. Maybe it really is socialism kills entrepreneurial spirit. If you can be an artist or a 35hr/wk public servant and live well, why bother being an entrepreneur?

mcv 5y ago
> If you can be an artist or a 35hr/wk public servant and live well, why bother being an entrepreneur? Maybe because I don't want to be a public servant? I mean, it's important work that needs to be done, but the impression I get from my wife is that it involves a lot of bureaucracy. If we had a basic income or something like that, it would be much easier to take the risk to become an entrepreneur.
belval 5y ago
My take is that there is a whole culture side of things to consider. Some cultures will have a higher general opinion of entrepreneurs than others. In Quebec, Canada you still see a lot of that mindset where a successful entrepreneur is more associated with a slimy businessman than a smart person. It's slowly changing however.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > In Quebec, Canada you still see a lot of that mindset where a successful entrepreneur is more associated with a slimy businessman than a smart person. Historically, didn't the employees speak French and the bosses English? From what I understood, there was very much a glass ceiling and discrimination, similar to what was going on here in the south. Capital wouldn't be loaned across ethnic lines for instance. That might contribute to the perception of entrepreneurs being shady: they historically were there to fleece the locals, not build and prosper.

ipv6ipv4 5y ago

Israel

belval 5y ago
Does Israel have a lot of startups because of free healthcare or simply because it benefits from a culture that encourages startups? They also have a higher average education level which probably helps to some extent. No saying that healthcare is not a factor, I just doubt that the parent's explanation that free healthcare is holding back would-be entrepreneurs is well-founded.

softwaredoug 5y ago

It would be really hard to pin the causality of something like this... some of the most 'entrepreneurial' places in the US are some of the 'bluest' areas

bobthechef 5y ago
Right, but this correlation with "blueness" is, I think, accidental and doesn't account for small businesses. For example, I would expect more small local businesses in red states than blue states. The tech sector will favor large corporations because of the magnitude of investment involved, at least traditionally (if we are to believe the "economies of scale" explanation; some challenge it, but at the very least, it is causally relevant). So you might see more startup entrepreneurship in blue states because that's where the tech expertise is already concentrated. And because those in tech tend to have college degrees at higher rates, and colleges tend to encourage neoliberal and left-leaning views, you should expect to see more tech in blue states because of that, so you have a self-reinforcing process (there are of course other considerations). But I wouldn't attribute entrepreneurship to the presence of social programs. On the one hand, those who need social programs are not going to be very educated and are most likely going to be much more interested in making basic ends meet over some business venture. On the other hand, once they receive social benefits, they are often not very motivated to try to start a small local business like a food cart either since they have food on the table. So you need to appeal to cultural factors to account for motivation as well.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
> some of the most 'entrepreneurial' places in the US are some of the 'bluest' areas I'm not sure how you reach this conclusion. "Screw this I'm starting my own business" is far, far more common in the blue collar world than the white collar world and they tend to vote way redder.
- softwaredoug 5y ago
  You could be right, I am thinking of California, but that's a very tech-centric position and I admit to my bias.

pbourke 5y ago

> Do we see a greater percentage of entrepreneurs from Canada or Europe than from the US? Yes, if one uses self-employment as a proxy for entrepreneurship. The US trails Canada and Western European countries in self employment as a percentage of the labour force. https://data.oecd.org/chart/6xG6 https://data.oecd.org/chart/6xG6 Edit: the US has the lowest rate in this OECD dataset.

908B64B197 5y ago
How much of that, especially in Europe, is simply a way to bypass the ever increasing burden of regulations around employment?
- goodpoint 5y ago
  Close to none. Companies love to have employees.
- fnord77 5y ago
  In Sweden, many software engineers work as contract engineers for better pay. Salaries for hired software engineers in Europe are dismal.
  - bilekas 5y ago
    > Salaries for hired software engineers in Europe are dismal I strongly disagree, it might be all relative of course, but dismal is not a word that would even come close.
    - mcv 5y ago
      No, they're still solid jobs compared to what lots of other people get paid. But managers and other corporate types still get paid a lot more. And self-employed, you can also get paid that much, just not as an employee.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

bobthechef 5y ago

Right, you'd have to back this up with numbers, but if startups are considered, the US outstrips everyone else, certainly in the West. The story is going to be more complicated. Ethos is an important factor. Some countries have cultures that are prohibitive or discouraging for entrepreneurs or encourage safety and comfort over risky pursuits, and working for a large corp is going to be more compatible with that than risking your neck to run your own business. I suspect countries that have national health care are going to correlate strongly with those which are risk averse and therefore less entrepreneurial.

Swizec 5y ago

> Do we see a greater percentage of entrepreneurs from Canada or Europe than from the US? Don't know about Canada, but in my neck of Europe (Slovenia) it seems everyone who is ambitious defaults to entrepreneurship. Because it's the only way to advance or get anywhere interesting at all. And almost everyone has a sidehustle or two. To the point that a while back the government had to crack down on sidehustling and associated grey economy. Laws like not being allowed to "help your neighbors" build a house. Now I live in San Francisco and the entrepreneurship spirit is much less. Tech just pays far too well for most people to faff around starting their own thing. To quote a friend of mine "Dude, I'd be stupid to start a company right now! Have you seen how much companies will pay for my skills? wow"

Scalestein 5y ago

I think there really is something in American culture that fuels entrepreneurship. Maybe it's the puritan and "prosperity gospel" roots. It would be interesting to see a comparison of entrepreneurship between US and Canada in the early 1900s before health care and especially job sponsored health care were so common.

selectodude 5y ago
>Maybe it's the puritan and "prosperity gospel" roots. No, the puritans (and Europeans in general) considered bankruptcy a moral failing and it was punished with societal banishment and prison. The United States invented modern bankruptcy law. States have taken it a step further and protected most major assets from being seized in a bankruptcy (house, car, certain amounts of cash), so the absolute worst case from failing is that you dust yourself off, wait a few years and try again. It's just part of the culture now.
908B64B197 5y ago
There's also the fact that, in America anyone/any family can make it and even become president/senator. It's by the American people and for the American people. Just look at the Kennedys. In Canada, you look at the country's history and even its current head of state and... it's a foreign non-elected monarch. The other head of state is non-elected as well and is supposed to be a representative of the crown. Same thing for their senate, all nominated. Even until recently, the highest court of the country was... in London! That would simply be unthinkable in America. This kind of things permeate aspects of life; there is this notion that there is a natural order of things and that people are born into certain roles. And it also seems true in the business world; Banking and Telecom, for instance, are fiercely protected and have an almost impossible moat to surmount for a competitor to come and disrupt the market.

MattGaiser 5y ago

Canada at least is an extremely risk averse place. I can’t even get people up here to try new startups that Americans will download and try at the first suggestion.

EForEndeavour 5y ago
How nationally representative and/or comparable are your samples of Canadian and American people?
ikr678 5y ago
Is that risk aversion, or something else though? I find Americans much more primed to consume and try new products.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  It is just one example. There are numerous. Canadians have a pastime of whining about our Big 5 banks. Nobody ever switches to another bank. Same with telecom. We complain about the prices. Nobody tries their competitors like Freedom. I hear stories of students joining startups in the USA over FAANG. Here many people do startups to boost their resumes for big company jobs (I was part of a startup accelerator where a lot of people were resume building). I know people doing this now. Building startups to be more employable by Amazon.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  > I find Americans much more primed to consume and try new products. Well, yes. Because Americans aren't very risk averse, and are pretty strongly novelty-seeking.
908B64B197 5y ago
> Canada at least is an extremely risk averse place. That also seems to be the case for investments. Everything seems to be centered around "safe" businesses with proven track record or just real estate. There's no VC putting money on a crazy idea (and they getting a home run one time out of 10).

chiefalchemist 5y ago

> Do we see a greater percentage of entrepreneurs from Canada or Europe than from the US? Different cultures. Different mindsets towards entrepreneurship and individuality. It shouldn't pass the smell test as you're smelling three different things :)

micromacrofoot 5y ago

Anecdotally, I’ve kept multiple jobs longer than I’ve wanted because they had good health insurance… I also switched jobs to have kids using better insurance

Spooky23 5y ago

Startups are not the only entrepreneurial business. Running a small business like a store, farm, etc without a spouse that carries the insurance is insane. Even businesses like bars and restaurants over time have tipped to larger or even public companies. When I was a 1099 consultant, I had a heath issue that would have bankrupted us if my wife wasn’t working for a municipal government with good insurance. You see more of these types of businesses in Europe.

geerlingguy 5y ago
I can say that my health insurance (as an independent worker with Healthcare.gov plan) costs more than my home mortgage and utilities combined. A significant amount more; and I still pay down a $10,000 deductible on top of that before any reimbursement kicks in.
- PopAlongKid 5y ago
  Even as anecdata, I see a few issues with this comparison. For one, part of your mortgage payment is simply a repayment of loan principal, which is not a cost of living. Only the interest portion might be considered a legitimate household expense. Second, with a $10K deductible, it sounds like you have a HDHP (high deductible health plan), of which the main feature is lower premiums, and also the ability to fund an HSA (health savings account) for additional tax savings. Even with your deductible, a wide variety of basic and preventive health services are available for free to you under ACA's minimum essential coverage provision. For example, see this list [0] for all adults, along with a similar ones specifically for women and children. [0] https://www.healthcare.gov/preventive-care-adults/ https://www.healthcare.gov/preventive-care-adults/
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
Owning property and being a landlord is a business. The only difference is you file your taxes separately and YOU don't own the property.

dsizzle 5y ago

Another axis to look at is the US over time (which also has less confounding with other differences across cultures). Looking at the graphs in the article, it appears Obamacare may have stopped the decline in self-employed workers. And since Obamacare started, the number of (likely) business applications increased steadily, doubling over 10 years. Unfortunately that graph doesn't go back in time far enough to determine if that's a deviation from a previous trend or not (it looks like it was increasing at a similar rate just before), but it's at least consistent with Obamacare helping slightly. What's more striking is the 50% jump in business applications around the time of covid. Maybe that's in part due to stimulus?

guiomie 5y ago

Does it matter what we see in Canada our Europe? I wouldn't surprised the USA has a highest percentage of entrepreneurs because of multitude of other reasons than healthcare such as capital, regulations and values/spirit. I also believe free healthcare would decrease the barrier to entry to starting a company, it would make the USA an even bigger entrepeneur centric country. Now, would the USA be better with universal healthcare in general, I am not sure. I live in the USA (almost 6 years), born, studied and worked 6 years in Canada.

teeray 5y ago
> Does it matter what we see in Canada our Europe? Well yeah… if we’re going to repeat the same thing and expect to see a certain outcome, we had better see that outcome where this has already been implemented. It’s the closest thing to a crystal ball that we’re going to get.

vadym909 5y ago

The base hurdle to be entrepreneur w family is $2.5-5k rent + $2k health for family + food and clothing per month- just to break even.

mrfusion 5y ago

I think it’s simply confounded by all the other regulations those countries have.

TulliusCicero 5y ago

It's not the only factor: Americans culturally value entrepeneurship very strongly. People love the idea of being your own boss or starting your own business, and telling friends that you plan to do this will generally garner positive comments (often times even if you fail).