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>wearing it in public is endangering the public. Only because you're driving a car that was programmed by monkeys and sold by PT Barnum. If your car can't tel

>wearing it in public is endangering the public. Only because you're driving a car that was programmed by monkeys and sold by PT Barnum. If your car can't tell the difference between a street sign and a T-shirt, it's really not fully self driving, is it?

boomboomsubban 5y ago
I agree that it's a ridiculous hypothetical and any company shipping something like that should also face punishment.
- nemo44x 5y ago
  Only the company shipping that should face punishment. Their code instructed a machine to kill people, etc. The hypothetical t-shirt is data, not code. These are very important distinctions. Code needs to be responsible for its data. I’d even argue that to be used on public road that any self driving code needs to be open source.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    >Their code instructed a machine to kill people, etc. The hypothetical t-shirt is data, not code. It is data you are intentionally using to hurt someone. If a person legally gained access to a water treatment plant and sent inputs to poison the water, you wouldn't say that person only sent data and the code was at fault. The shirt is inputting data into the car the same way. Tools should be made with safety in mind, but when people use them to cause harm the person is at fault too.
    - brokenmachine 5y ago
      If I made a computer that explodes and catches fire when you type certain words into it, is it then the typists fault if that word gets typed? Or have I been negligent by creating a device that is unable to process certain words without exploding? ie it can't do it's job properly and safely. This hypothetical car is too badly designed to ignore things that aren't road signs. A 5 year old can recognize if something is a road sign or not, and we don't let them drive. That's how pathetic this car is. Of course it shouldn't be allowed on a public road, and it shouldn't be allowed to be sold because it is unsafe.
      - boomboomsubban 5y ago
        >Of course it shouldn't be allowed on a public road, and it shouldn't be allowed to be sold because it is unsafe I agree with this, that's separate from what I'm discussing. If you made a computer that exploded when someone typed a word into it, and then I knew about this and told someone else to type that word in, we would both be culpable.
        brokenmachine 5y ago
        >and told someone else to type that word in, we would both be culpable. Perhaps as some technicality but in reality who is (much) more culpable? Who would think a computer would be made so poorly that it fails dangerously if the wrong word is typed in? One could say they didn't believe it would be true because it sounds too implausible. Same with a car that drives off the road if it sees the wrong thing on a t-shirt. I don't think it's fine for a company to just make products that are super dangerous if some slight edge case is met. In my opinion they would be liable. Otherwise terrorism can be legal if you slap an "AI" label on it.
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        >Perhaps as some technicality but in reality who is (much) more culpable? The person who both knew that the computer was dangerous and directly caused someone to perform that dangerous act. Without them, it's possible no one gets injured. >I don't think it's fine for a company to just make products that are super dangerous if some slight edge case is met. As I keep telling you, neither do I. I really don't understand your point of view. Of course companies shouldn't make unsafe products, but just because an unsafe product exists doesn't justify someone using that product to hurt someone. Just because the danger sounds implausible doesn't forgive the situation. It sounds implausible that touching a bit of metal would kill someone but if I made you touch a live wire I'd be at fault.
        brokenmachine 5y ago
        My point of view is that I support people's right to wear any shirt they want. I don't think if people want to wear any shirt, even one specifically designed to fool garbage AI, that it is their fault that a car suddenly decides to kill people. If you want to sell a car it must be smart and safe enough to ignore any T-Shirt, poster or painting in it's vicinity, just like my old, non-garbage non-AI car. If you can't do that, then you can't sell cars without being sued into oblivion. And that's the way it should be. Messing with street signs is already illegal. But wearing a shirt, no matter what it has on it, is not.

boomboomsubban 5y ago

I agree that it's a ridiculous hypothetical and any company shipping something like that should also face punishment.

nemo44x 5y ago
Only the company shipping that should face punishment. Their code instructed a machine to kill people, etc. The hypothetical t-shirt is data, not code. These are very important distinctions. Code needs to be responsible for its data. I’d even argue that to be used on public road that any self driving code needs to be open source.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  >Their code instructed a machine to kill people, etc. The hypothetical t-shirt is data, not code. It is data you are intentionally using to hurt someone. If a person legally gained access to a water treatment plant and sent inputs to poison the water, you wouldn't say that person only sent data and the code was at fault. The shirt is inputting data into the car the same way. Tools should be made with safety in mind, but when people use them to cause harm the person is at fault too.
  - brokenmachine 5y ago
    If I made a computer that explodes and catches fire when you type certain words into it, is it then the typists fault if that word gets typed? Or have I been negligent by creating a device that is unable to process certain words without exploding? ie it can't do it's job properly and safely. This hypothetical car is too badly designed to ignore things that aren't road signs. A 5 year old can recognize if something is a road sign or not, and we don't let them drive. That's how pathetic this car is. Of course it shouldn't be allowed on a public road, and it shouldn't be allowed to be sold because it is unsafe.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      >Of course it shouldn't be allowed on a public road, and it shouldn't be allowed to be sold because it is unsafe I agree with this, that's separate from what I'm discussing. If you made a computer that exploded when someone typed a word into it, and then I knew about this and told someone else to type that word in, we would both be culpable.
      - brokenmachine 5y ago
        >and told someone else to type that word in, we would both be culpable. Perhaps as some technicality but in reality who is (much) more culpable? Who would think a computer would be made so poorly that it fails dangerously if the wrong word is typed in? One could say they didn't believe it would be true because it sounds too implausible. Same with a car that drives off the road if it sees the wrong thing on a t-shirt. I don't think it's fine for a company to just make products that are super dangerous if some slight edge case is met. In my opinion they would be liable. Otherwise terrorism can be legal if you slap an "AI" label on it.
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        >Perhaps as some technicality but in reality who is (much) more culpable? The person who both knew that the computer was dangerous and directly caused someone to perform that dangerous act. Without them, it's possible no one gets injured. >I don't think it's fine for a company to just make products that are super dangerous if some slight edge case is met. As I keep telling you, neither do I. I really don't understand your point of view. Of course companies shouldn't make unsafe products, but just because an unsafe product exists doesn't justify someone using that product to hurt someone. Just because the danger sounds implausible doesn't forgive the situation. It sounds implausible that touching a bit of metal would kill someone but if I made you touch a live wire I'd be at fault.
        brokenmachine 5y ago
        My point of view is that I support people's right to wear any shirt they want. I don't think if people want to wear any shirt, even one specifically designed to fool garbage AI, that it is their fault that a car suddenly decides to kill people. If you want to sell a car it must be smart and safe enough to ignore any T-Shirt, poster or painting in it's vicinity, just like my old, non-garbage non-AI car. If you can't do that, then you can't sell cars without being sued into oblivion. And that's the way it should be. Messing with street signs is already illegal. But wearing a shirt, no matter what it has on it, is not.