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This notion is offensive to some men, including myself, because along all this seemingly good natured talk often comes a negation of how the majority of men act

This notion is offensive to some men, including myself, because along all this seemingly good natured talk often comes a negation of how the majority of men actually feel and express their feelings and a redefinition of their masculine identity as toxic. And there is some hypocrisy in claiming to be welcoming and accepting of men while insisting they express their emotions in a more traditionally feminine way. In my experience, the majority of men behave naturally in a traditionally masculine way and are comfortable expressing themselves this way. It doesn't mean they are any less emotionally complex than women or emotionally stunted. Emotionally expressive and occasionally vulnerable men is what women have always asked for. If we're going to worry about men and their emotions then let's make sure we actually do it for the sake of men, in a way that is adapted to the way men feel and express themselves.

emacsen 5y ago
You probably won't see this since it's been so long but... > a redefinition of their masculine identity as toxic There's a bunch to unpack here. First, I never used any such terms. All I did was say that it's weird to me that some men react so strongly to what other men are doing, as if it offends them personally. That's actually a segue into the next part... You said that there's a redefinition or relabeling of masculine identify as toxic. I don't think it's masculine identity, but a set of behaviors and patterns. As an example, why would it bother Joe if Bob goes to a meeting where he's talking about his own feelings? Why does Joe feel personally attacked for that? And if Joe's response is "That's GIRLY!" and thus something to distanced from, again, why? Why is Joe's idea of masculinity so narrow as not to include Bob's expression. That's what toxic masculinity is, it's the idea that masculinity has to be a very narrow thing and that we (men) must perform it within very tight parameters. > insisting they express their emotions in a more traditionally feminine way. Do you actually see this and have experienced it? This isn't a hyperbolic question, because it hasn't been my experience. > Emotionally expressive and occasionally vulnerable men is what women have always asked for That is also not my experience. Women can engage in the same toxic attitudes as men and perpetuate the same rigid gender roles. We see it throughout society, in all socio-economic statuses, and generally. "Boys don't cry" still exists, and "Boys will be boys" exists (though less than it did when I was a a child). We still see men valued by their economic statuses, and their ability to suppress emotion. And we still see unconventional expressions of masculinity as the butt of jokes in mainstream culture, such as Drax in the Marvel movies, Boyle in Brooklyn 99, and the entire male cast of the Big Bang Theory. Not masculine identity, but behaviors and thought patterns. I had difficulty understanding this and found the term "toxic masculinit

emacsen 5y ago

You probably won't see this since it's been so long but... > a redefinition of their masculine identity as toxic There's a bunch to unpack here. First, I never used any such terms. All I did was say that it's weird to me that some men react so strongly to what other men are doing, as if it offends them personally. That's actually a segue into the next part... You said that there's a redefinition or relabeling of masculine identify as toxic. I don't think it's masculine identity, but a set of behaviors and patterns. As an example, why would it bother Joe if Bob goes to a meeting where he's talking about his own feelings? Why does Joe feel personally attacked for that? And if Joe's response is "That's GIRLY!" and thus something to distanced from, again, why? Why is Joe's idea of masculinity so narrow as not to include Bob's expression. That's what toxic masculinity is, it's the idea that masculinity has to be a very narrow thing and that we (men) must perform it within very tight parameters. > insisting they express their emotions in a more traditionally feminine way. Do you actually see this and have experienced it? This isn't a hyperbolic question, because it hasn't been my experience. > Emotionally expressive and occasionally vulnerable men is what women have always asked for That is also not my experience. Women can engage in the same toxic attitudes as men and perpetuate the same rigid gender roles. We see it throughout society, in all socio-economic statuses, and generally. "Boys don't cry" still exists, and "Boys will be boys" exists (though less than it did when I was a a child). We still see men valued by their economic statuses, and their ability to suppress emotion. And we still see unconventional expressions of masculinity as the butt of jokes in mainstream culture, such as Drax in the Marvel movies, Boyle in Brooklyn 99, and the entire male cast of the Big Bang Theory. Not masculine identity, but behaviors and thought patterns. I had difficulty understanding this and found the term "toxic masculinit