4 ms·

But maybe the real answer is to just have trusted authorities? So much of civilization is possible because of trust, I don’t think we should throw that away.

by ivalm 5y ago

Hokusai 5y ago
You need trusted authorities anyway. Anyone may show at your home and steal your crypto currency at gun point, you may pay for items that are not delivered, your employer may not pay you. Authorities and the rule of law are fully needed for any functional society. Crypto currencies as an anarchist dream are impossible as a very complex society is needed to produce them, and that society requires to be functional. If someone wants anarchism they should simplify and use gold or some other easier to carry and exchange.
- koolba 5y ago
  > Anyone may show at your home and steal your crypto currency at gun point, you may pay for items that are not delivered, your employer may not pay you. Authorities and the rule of law are fully needed for any functional society. In a crypto anarchist’s dream world, the employee’s income claimable token could be resold, purchased by a loan shark, and the loan shark could provide another permission-less contract where anybody can upload a picture of the employer’s knees being broken, likely verified on chain by some other pain oracle.
- Vetch 5y ago
  In my experience, your described state of affairs is common in poor economies. Robberies and kidnapping ransoms are relatively frequent. Shootings are rare but still way too frequent. Workers often go unpaid and it's not unusual for wages to total less than transportation costs. Landlords are known to have poor memories about paid rent and it's not uncommon for deliveries to be stolen and containers disappear. There's a real risk of valuable goods ordered internationally "disappearing" in customs. The countervailing factors are, the poor are mostly ignored (except for kidnappings of large groups of children) while the rich can afford private security at an equilibrium price point where betrayal is not rational. Although crime rates are high, most do not participate because people are good for the most part. The major drags are scams, unpaid workers, phone theft (a phone is more likely to be stolen than a laptop), equipment sabotage (from wiring to rail tracks), political campaign related violence and most especially, theft, corruption and embezzlement by government officials. In an environment of rampant corruption, minimizing the surface area exposed to trust is a rational preference. It might even be helpful in exiting a high corruption steady state.
- jkhdigital 5y ago
  You obviously live in a society where central authorities are, in fact, trustworthy enough to handle these things. A cursory glance at history—or at other societies even in the present day—shows that this is a shockingly rare state of affairs.
ichydkrsrnae 5y ago
These trusted authorities of which you speak are no longer trusted.
- malermeister 5y ago
  More than I trust whatever the latest crypto get-rich-quick scheme is. Neither are great, but various crypto scams have been more common than even bank fraud, plus they use more energy.
  - tata71 5y ago
    Why not choose one that's been around for a few years, then? Five? Ten?
  - Kranar 5y ago
    No one is suggesting that everyone must use Bitcoin, but please understand that over the past 100 years the majority of the world's currencies have collapsed one way or another. Not every country is the U.S. which has been able to use its military might to maintain the value of its currency. Russia, Mexico, India, many European nations prior to the Euro, most of South America, have all seen their currencies collapse at some point in the past 50 years or so, and in many cases within the past 30 years. It's possible that the US dollar doesn't collapse at all in the next 50 years... and that would be great... but it's also possible that at some point in the next 50 years the US dollar ends up being devalued significantly in which case it isn't such a horrible idea to take some of your cash and store it in a globally accessible cryptocurrency in addition to other assets such as gold.
    - malermeister 5y ago
      Okay so I kind of see where you're coming from, but I still strongly disagree with you. You're saying that because world currencies collapse (your claim is the majority of them have within the past 100 years, which I don't have the data on, but let's just assume for the sake of argument that you're right), bitcoin is needed. But bitcoin collapses not just every 30-100 years, it collapses every 0.5-5 years. [1] How is that in any way better? Why are we spending all this energy on this? [1] https://www.yahoo.com/now/7-biggest-bitcoin-crashes-history-180038282.html https://www.yahoo.com/now/7-biggest-bitcoin-crashes-history-...

But maybe the real answer is to just have trusted authorities? So much of civilization is possible because of trust, I don’t think we should throw that away.

by ivalm 5y ago

But maybe the real answer is to just have trusted authorities? So much of civilization is possible because of trust, I don’t think we should throw that away.

Hokusai 5y ago

You need trusted authorities anyway. Anyone may show at your home and steal your crypto currency at gun point, you may pay for items that are not delivered, your employer may not pay you. Authorities and the rule of law are fully needed for any functional society. Crypto currencies as an anarchist dream are impossible as a very complex society is needed to produce them, and that society requires to be functional. If someone wants anarchism they should simplify and use gold or some other easier to carry and exchange.

koolba 5y ago
> Anyone may show at your home and steal your crypto currency at gun point, you may pay for items that are not delivered, your employer may not pay you. Authorities and the rule of law are fully needed for any functional society. In a crypto anarchist’s dream world, the employee’s income claimable token could be resold, purchased by a loan shark, and the loan shark could provide another permission-less contract where anybody can upload a picture of the employer’s knees being broken, likely verified on chain by some other pain oracle.
Vetch 5y ago
In my experience, your described state of affairs is common in poor economies. Robberies and kidnapping ransoms are relatively frequent. Shootings are rare but still way too frequent. Workers often go unpaid and it's not unusual for wages to total less than transportation costs. Landlords are known to have poor memories about paid rent and it's not uncommon for deliveries to be stolen and containers disappear. There's a real risk of valuable goods ordered internationally "disappearing" in customs. The countervailing factors are, the poor are mostly ignored (except for kidnappings of large groups of children) while the rich can afford private security at an equilibrium price point where betrayal is not rational. Although crime rates are high, most do not participate because people are good for the most part. The major drags are scams, unpaid workers, phone theft (a phone is more likely to be stolen than a laptop), equipment sabotage (from wiring to rail tracks), political campaign related violence and most especially, theft, corruption and embezzlement by government officials. In an environment of rampant corruption, minimizing the surface area exposed to trust is a rational preference. It might even be helpful in exiting a high corruption steady state.
jkhdigital 5y ago
You obviously live in a society where central authorities are, in fact, trustworthy enough to handle these things. A cursory glance at history—or at other societies even in the present day—shows that this is a shockingly rare state of affairs.

ichydkrsrnae 5y ago

These trusted authorities of which you speak are no longer trusted.

malermeister 5y ago
More than I trust whatever the latest crypto get-rich-quick scheme is. Neither are great, but various crypto scams have been more common than even bank fraud, plus they use more energy.
- tata71 5y ago
  Why not choose one that's been around for a few years, then? Five? Ten?
- Kranar 5y ago
  No one is suggesting that everyone must use Bitcoin, but please understand that over the past 100 years the majority of the world's currencies have collapsed one way or another. Not every country is the U.S. which has been able to use its military might to maintain the value of its currency. Russia, Mexico, India, many European nations prior to the Euro, most of South America, have all seen their currencies collapse at some point in the past 50 years or so, and in many cases within the past 30 years. It's possible that the US dollar doesn't collapse at all in the next 50 years... and that would be great... but it's also possible that at some point in the next 50 years the US dollar ends up being devalued significantly in which case it isn't such a horrible idea to take some of your cash and store it in a globally accessible cryptocurrency in addition to other assets such as gold.
  - malermeister 5y ago
    Okay so I kind of see where you're coming from, but I still strongly disagree with you. You're saying that because world currencies collapse (your claim is the majority of them have within the past 100 years, which I don't have the data on, but let's just assume for the sake of argument that you're right), bitcoin is needed. But bitcoin collapses not just every 30-100 years, it collapses every 0.5-5 years. [1] How is that in any way better? Why are we spending all this energy on this? [1] https://www.yahoo.com/now/7-biggest-bitcoin-crashes-history-180038282.html https://www.yahoo.com/now/7-biggest-bitcoin-crashes-history-...