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Men certainly aren't valued for being masculine, but what are they valued for, beyond what they can provide to other people? Nothing. Feminism took away the rol

Men certainly aren't valued for being masculine, but what are they valued for, beyond what they can provide to other people? Nothing. Feminism took away the roles but didn't replace it with anything useful for men and valuable to others.

akdas 5y ago
In a world without gender roles, men (and women and non-binary folks) would be valued just for being human. That is, everyone has value, even if they don't provide "value" (which is subjective and changing anyway) to others.
JasonCannon 5y ago
What do you think feminism has taken away from men?
- Jensson 5y ago
  Male spaces. The freedom to vent about male issues. Feminism goes out of their way to cancel male spaces while building up female spaces. Video games made by men for men? Bad, needs to include women! And so on. But when men tries to get a place in female spaces they just say "go make your own, don't depend on women for everything!", as if they let men make their own spaces... Feminism also started shaming men who complain about women. Women are still allowed to complain freely about men. Don't they understand how damaging this is for men's mental health that they aren't allowed to let out steam while women are free to do so? And lastly they are practicing a lot of toxic masculinity. If I bring up male issues as I did here, feminists will come and say things like "Are you so weak that you need to complain and let out steam just to manage your day? Grow up!", or "Why do you need your own space, can't you handle women around you? Don't be a child, just learn how to socialize and all your issues are solved!". Those are examples of toxic masculinity, they fail to acknowledge that there are actually a lot of weak men out there who would benefit greatly from having greater access to these things. But instead they just say that men have to be stoic or they aren't welcome in feminist society. And I bet this post will get such toxic masculinity responses from feminists who argue that men just have to be more stoic and everything will be fine. "But feminists says men should cry more!", they say that, but they don't mean it. If a man cries such that it inconveniences a woman, guess what? It is the man who is bad. The woman complaining about the main crying is obviously correct, the man should have been stronger, but now he is so weak that it burdens the woman and that is bad. "But you can't expect a person to handle too much emotional labor!", well, the thing is, I've never seen a situation where a woman complained about a man crying and feminists didn't took her side. How can that be taken as anything but toxic masculinity? If they really wanted men to cry more then they should encourage women to handle that burden rather than totally drop the ball and shame men who dare to cry.
  - akdas 5y ago
    There are a lot of strawman arguments here. I've never heard feminists say any of these things because they are antithetical to the concept of equality for all. I'm a feminist, and asking for men's spaces is something I do. Feminists want spaces for men. Feminists want people to bring up male issues. Feminists don't want men to be stoic. > If they really wanted men to cry more then they should encourage women to handle that burden rather than totally drop the ball and shame men who dare to cry. There's some truth to this, but it's also omitting something that's extremely important (and therefore changes the entire tone of this argument): we should also encourage men to handle that burden rather than totally drop the ball and shame men who dare to cry. It's not men vs. women. It's men and women together. That's what feminism is.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      > I've never heard feminists say any of these things because they are antithetical to the concept of equality for all. No true Scotsman there. It is true that people who say that aren't for equality, but they still call themselves feminists and feminists still welcome them as their own. That is the point, feminism as a movement isn't really for equality, they say they are but they aren't really or else those wouldn't get accepted in the movement. Your movement gets colored by the rotten apples in it, just like mens right has a lot of bad apples so do feminism, and what those bad apples do will also get attributed to feminism even if you think it shouldn't. > There's some truth to this, but it's also omitting something that's extremely important (and therefore changes the entire tone of this argument): we should also encourage men to handle that burden rather than totally drop the ball and shame men who dare to cry. It's not men vs. women. It's men and women together. That's what feminism is. You say it is men and women together here, but why do they just blame men for this? Most men live with a woman just as most women live with a man. The woman is his closest link, she is what affects him the most, if she practices toxic masculinity then there isn't much he can do. And as most men have experienced women like that they will teach their kids and each other that they have to be stoic and not cry, since otherwise women will not see them as a man. Sure, there are women out there who can accept a man who cries and do it well. But, as long as there are lots of toxic women out there who refuses to let a man cry there isn't much men can do, the "men don't cry" will live on as long as such women exists. And feminism doesn't try to do anything at all about those women.

akdas 5y ago

In a world without gender roles, men (and women and non-binary folks) would be valued just for being human. That is, everyone has value, even if they don't provide "value" (which is subjective and changing anyway) to others.

JasonCannon 5y ago

What do you think feminism has taken away from men?

Jensson 5y ago
Male spaces. The freedom to vent about male issues. Feminism goes out of their way to cancel male spaces while building up female spaces. Video games made by men for men? Bad, needs to include women! And so on. But when men tries to get a place in female spaces they just say "go make your own, don't depend on women for everything!", as if they let men make their own spaces... Feminism also started shaming men who complain about women. Women are still allowed to complain freely about men. Don't they understand how damaging this is for men's mental health that they aren't allowed to let out steam while women are free to do so? And lastly they are practicing a lot of toxic masculinity. If I bring up male issues as I did here, feminists will come and say things like "Are you so weak that you need to complain and let out steam just to manage your day? Grow up!", or "Why do you need your own space, can't you handle women around you? Don't be a child, just learn how to socialize and all your issues are solved!". Those are examples of toxic masculinity, they fail to acknowledge that there are actually a lot of weak men out there who would benefit greatly from having greater access to these things. But instead they just say that men have to be stoic or they aren't welcome in feminist society. And I bet this post will get such toxic masculinity responses from feminists who argue that men just have to be more stoic and everything will be fine. "But feminists says men should cry more!", they say that, but they don't mean it. If a man cries such that it inconveniences a woman, guess what? It is the man who is bad. The woman complaining about the main crying is obviously correct, the man should have been stronger, but now he is so weak that it burdens the woman and that is bad. "But you can't expect a person to handle too much emotional labor!", well, the thing is, I've never seen a situation where a woman complained about a man crying and feminists didn't took her side. How can that be taken as anything but toxic masculinity? If they really wanted men to cry more then they should encourage women to handle that burden rather than totally drop the ball and shame men who dare to cry.
- akdas 5y ago
  There are a lot of strawman arguments here. I've never heard feminists say any of these things because they are antithetical to the concept of equality for all. I'm a feminist, and asking for men's spaces is something I do. Feminists want spaces for men. Feminists want people to bring up male issues. Feminists don't want men to be stoic. > If they really wanted men to cry more then they should encourage women to handle that burden rather than totally drop the ball and shame men who dare to cry. There's some truth to this, but it's also omitting something that's extremely important (and therefore changes the entire tone of this argument): we should also encourage men to handle that burden rather than totally drop the ball and shame men who dare to cry. It's not men vs. women. It's men and women together. That's what feminism is.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    > I've never heard feminists say any of these things because they are antithetical to the concept of equality for all. No true Scotsman there. It is true that people who say that aren't for equality, but they still call themselves feminists and feminists still welcome them as their own. That is the point, feminism as a movement isn't really for equality, they say they are but they aren't really or else those wouldn't get accepted in the movement. Your movement gets colored by the rotten apples in it, just like mens right has a lot of bad apples so do feminism, and what those bad apples do will also get attributed to feminism even if you think it shouldn't. > There's some truth to this, but it's also omitting something that's extremely important (and therefore changes the entire tone of this argument): we should also encourage men to handle that burden rather than totally drop the ball and shame men who dare to cry. It's not men vs. women. It's men and women together. That's what feminism is. You say it is men and women together here, but why do they just blame men for this? Most men live with a woman just as most women live with a man. The woman is his closest link, she is what affects him the most, if she practices toxic masculinity then there isn't much he can do. And as most men have experienced women like that they will teach their kids and each other that they have to be stoic and not cry, since otherwise women will not see them as a man. Sure, there are women out there who can accept a man who cries and do it well. But, as long as there are lots of toxic women out there who refuses to let a man cry there isn't much men can do, the "men don't cry" will live on as long as such women exists. And feminism doesn't try to do anything at all about those women.