5 ms·

Work in support sometime. It is EXTREMELY common to find users that really don't know about right-click. Or that double-click everything. These are not new u

Work in support sometime. It is EXTREMELY common to find users that really don't know about right-click. Or that double-click everything. These are not new users either, they have been using computers for decades. For new users I might agree that they could figure out a right click because everything is new. But for users where everything is familiar ("I've always done it this way"), it gets much harder to break those expected actions. Second part is about explorer itself. While it might seem like a common utility (even necessary), I find it very rare for a general user to know about it (my wife does not, nor my parents, siblings, their friends,...but my wife's father does). Once they see it, they have no idea what to do. Copy a file? Really, they have no idea.

ajross 15y ago
Do those users use the desktop shell at all though? In my experience with novice users (across platforms: Mac noobs are no better) is that they only know enough to launch apps. They never touch the desktop integration at all.
- sukuriant 15y ago
  When my grandfather uses the computer, he reorganizes the desktop, and puts files in folders, and sometimes wants to delete things, yes. All of those actions require knowing how to [delete], [open folders], [drag and drop].
- alextingle 15y ago
  This is only because the Finder/Explorer has been made harder and harder to use. Apple's OSX Finder is a shocking UI abomination. Their old MacOS Finder was clear and simple - my wife would spend hours arranging her work in coloured folders, each of which opened in a window whose shape and position she had chosen, and was meaningful to her. It was a powerful tool that enabled her to arrange and group her work. Now, both Apple and Microsoft compete with each other over how bad they can make their file system interface. Microsoft wanted to do away with the filesystem in Longhorn, and Apple have actually done so in iOS. Is this progress??
  - GeneralMaximus 15y ago
    Are you talking about spatial mode? That still exists in Finder. Just hit Cmd+Opt+T or select "Hide Toolbars" from the View menu. You're absolutely right. I don't have the citation on me right now, but spatial mode has been found to be easier to grasp for new users in every single test ever. The only reason it was dropped was because (1) Windows Explorer, (2) power users whined about too many open windows and (3) a lot of people got used to URLs opening in the same window thanks to web browsers, so people sought to apply the same principles to file browsers. Spatial mode used to be default on GNOME for a long time. There, too, it was dropped because of the same reasons. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_file_manager http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_file_manager and http://www.bytebot.net/geekdocs/spatial-nautilus.html http://www.bytebot.net/geekdocs/spatial-nautilus.html
    - lloeki 15y ago
      > Just hit Cmd+Opt+T or select "Hide Toolbars" from the View menu The problem is that there's no global switch to force Finder in spatial mode coming from anywhere, anytime. This results in a messy affair when suddenly a non-spatial Finder pops up because you never opened that folder directly and previously put it in spatial mode.
    - rahoulb 15y ago
      I don't know about Windows but on the Mac it's not spatial mode (and hasn't been since OS9) - it's just a poor imitation. You can easily have two Finder windows open on the same folder, meaning you lose the immediate recognition that spatial mode gives you. My personal take - they should have two types of Finder window - a spatial "folder contents" window and a folder-browser (probably in column-view) that only shows folders and maybe a preview of the files within. So you can navigate quickly/enter file-paths in the browser, but to actually use a folder, you enter spatial mode, so you have the instant recognition of where you are.
    - access_denied 15y ago
      > The only reason it was dropped was because... (1) the NeXT team won the culture wars and the file browser was introduced on NextStep.
dhimes 15y ago
Re: explorer-- then I probably used the wrong term. I was refering to the program you are using when you are on the desktop, and simply want to copy a file. Mac used to call this the "Finder," I believe. Now the idea that you actually have more problem with experienced users is interesting. I can see that in myself (damn new microwave!). But I still feel like it's no harder to learn, however, than what a bunch of icons are supposed to represent. But once it's shown, then is it really hard for them? Seems like the problem is one of discoverability, not complexity.
- Stratoscope 15y ago
  You have the right terminology for both platforms. It's still called Finder on the Mac, and Windows Explorer or Explorer for short - in fact the executable is explorer.exe.
  - Symmetry 15y ago
    The generic term is usually 'file manager'. There are at least of half dozen of them in the Linux world.
iaskwhy 15y ago
I guess that partly explains the reason behind the single mouse button on Apple computers for quite some time.
bane 15y ago
"Work in support sometime." Spending 2 years in hell doing phone tech support for an ISP after high school was probably the most valuable career experience I've ever had bar none. Nothing has prepared me for making and selling software to regular people better than this experience. Entire assumptions about how users interact with computers, ones based on my own experience, were rendered useless. The ways regular people think about technology is endlessly fascinating because it very rarely has anything to do with how I think about technology. At my day job, we eventually decided to put our development lead as tier-2 tech support because we couldn't get this across. He receives every single piece of support mail we get and is asked to respond to a pretty good percentage of them. It's been a 2 year, very difficult, education for him.
- mitjak 15y ago
  Sounds like a potentially useful experience but, what does a development lead have to do with designing good UI?
  - kyberias 15y ago
    What are you implying? That development leads should not or could not contribute to designing a good UI?
    - mitjak 15y ago
      They should ideally not be the only ones designing it.
  - bane 15y ago
    In small companies, people often fill multiple rolls. Our dev lead happens to be our lead UI designer as well -- but we all provide feedback. Sticking him on part-time tech support duty was a creative way of both giving us another tier of support while simultaneously forcing him to deal with our regular 'ol user. Experiencing the mind of the typical user day after day has caused some major changes in his UI design philosophy. Don't bury things in menus, limit the number of ways you can do something, walk users through set procedures, etc. There's a bunch of different approaches to interface design and many of them don't work well. We've all seen the beautiful but hard to use designs made by professional designers, and the control-panel-of-a-spaceship design made by developers. It seems that what both cases miss out on is spending time working with and understanding the average guy on the street. Or rather, good interface design means spending lots of time optimizing for regular users.
chao- 15y ago
Second part is about explorer itself. While it might seem like a common utility (even necessary), I find it very rare for a general user to know about it (my wife does not, nor my parents, siblings, their friends,...but my wife's father does). Once they see it, they have no idea what to do. Seconding. Especially before Windows 7 added Explorer as a pinned item by default, the less-technologically-literate persons I know would simply called it "My Computer", and used it in the large-icon, single-paned view. On one occasion while helping a friend find a file, I opened Explorer and switched it to the Details view option. Between that and the folder hierarchy in the left pane, I guess it looked different enough from "My Computer" that my friend was used to and I was given the reaction "Wow, you're really in the guts of the machine, now."

ajross 15y ago

Do those users use the desktop shell at all though? In my experience with novice users (across platforms: Mac noobs are no better) is that they only know enough to launch apps. They never touch the desktop integration at all.

sukuriant 15y ago
When my grandfather uses the computer, he reorganizes the desktop, and puts files in folders, and sometimes wants to delete things, yes. All of those actions require knowing how to [delete], [open folders], [drag and drop].
alextingle 15y ago
This is only because the Finder/Explorer has been made harder and harder to use. Apple's OSX Finder is a shocking UI abomination. Their old MacOS Finder was clear and simple - my wife would spend hours arranging her work in coloured folders, each of which opened in a window whose shape and position she had chosen, and was meaningful to her. It was a powerful tool that enabled her to arrange and group her work. Now, both Apple and Microsoft compete with each other over how bad they can make their file system interface. Microsoft wanted to do away with the filesystem in Longhorn, and Apple have actually done so in iOS. Is this progress??
- GeneralMaximus 15y ago
  Are you talking about spatial mode? That still exists in Finder. Just hit Cmd+Opt+T or select "Hide Toolbars" from the View menu. You're absolutely right. I don't have the citation on me right now, but spatial mode has been found to be easier to grasp for new users in every single test ever. The only reason it was dropped was because (1) Windows Explorer, (2) power users whined about too many open windows and (3) a lot of people got used to URLs opening in the same window thanks to web browsers, so people sought to apply the same principles to file browsers. Spatial mode used to be default on GNOME for a long time. There, too, it was dropped because of the same reasons. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_file_manager http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_file_manager and http://www.bytebot.net/geekdocs/spatial-nautilus.html http://www.bytebot.net/geekdocs/spatial-nautilus.html
  - lloeki 15y ago
    > Just hit Cmd+Opt+T or select "Hide Toolbars" from the View menu The problem is that there's no global switch to force Finder in spatial mode coming from anywhere, anytime. This results in a messy affair when suddenly a non-spatial Finder pops up because you never opened that folder directly and previously put it in spatial mode.
  - rahoulb 15y ago
    I don't know about Windows but on the Mac it's not spatial mode (and hasn't been since OS9) - it's just a poor imitation. You can easily have two Finder windows open on the same folder, meaning you lose the immediate recognition that spatial mode gives you. My personal take - they should have two types of Finder window - a spatial "folder contents" window and a folder-browser (probably in column-view) that only shows folders and maybe a preview of the files within. So you can navigate quickly/enter file-paths in the browser, but to actually use a folder, you enter spatial mode, so you have the instant recognition of where you are.
  - access_denied 15y ago
    > The only reason it was dropped was because... (1) the NeXT team won the culture wars and the file browser was introduced on NextStep.

dhimes 15y ago

Re: explorer-- then I probably used the wrong term. I was refering to the program you are using when you are on the desktop, and simply want to copy a file. Mac used to call this the "Finder," I believe. Now the idea that you actually have more problem with experienced users is interesting. I can see that in myself (damn new microwave!). But I still feel like it's no harder to learn, however, than what a bunch of icons are supposed to represent. But once it's shown, then is it really hard for them? Seems like the problem is one of discoverability, not complexity.

Stratoscope 15y ago
You have the right terminology for both platforms. It's still called Finder on the Mac, and Windows Explorer or Explorer for short - in fact the executable is explorer.exe.
- Symmetry 15y ago
  The generic term is usually 'file manager'. There are at least of half dozen of them in the Linux world.

iaskwhy 15y ago

I guess that partly explains the reason behind the single mouse button on Apple computers for quite some time.

bane 15y ago

"Work in support sometime." Spending 2 years in hell doing phone tech support for an ISP after high school was probably the most valuable career experience I've ever had bar none. Nothing has prepared me for making and selling software to regular people better than this experience. Entire assumptions about how users interact with computers, ones based on my own experience, were rendered useless. The ways regular people think about technology is endlessly fascinating because it very rarely has anything to do with how I think about technology. At my day job, we eventually decided to put our development lead as tier-2 tech support because we couldn't get this across. He receives every single piece of support mail we get and is asked to respond to a pretty good percentage of them. It's been a 2 year, very difficult, education for him.

mitjak 15y ago
Sounds like a potentially useful experience but, what does a development lead have to do with designing good UI?
- kyberias 15y ago
  What are you implying? That development leads should not or could not contribute to designing a good UI?
  - mitjak 15y ago
    They should ideally not be the only ones designing it.
- bane 15y ago
  In small companies, people often fill multiple rolls. Our dev lead happens to be our lead UI designer as well -- but we all provide feedback. Sticking him on part-time tech support duty was a creative way of both giving us another tier of support while simultaneously forcing him to deal with our regular 'ol user. Experiencing the mind of the typical user day after day has caused some major changes in his UI design philosophy. Don't bury things in menus, limit the number of ways you can do something, walk users through set procedures, etc. There's a bunch of different approaches to interface design and many of them don't work well. We've all seen the beautiful but hard to use designs made by professional designers, and the control-panel-of-a-spaceship design made by developers. It seems that what both cases miss out on is spending time working with and understanding the average guy on the street. Or rather, good interface design means spending lots of time optimizing for regular users.

chao- 15y ago

Second part is about explorer itself. While it might seem like a common utility (even necessary), I find it very rare for a general user to know about it (my wife does not, nor my parents, siblings, their friends,...but my wife's father does). Once they see it, they have no idea what to do. Seconding. Especially before Windows 7 added Explorer as a pinned item by default, the less-technologically-literate persons I know would simply called it "My Computer", and used it in the large-icon, single-paned view. On one occasion while helping a friend find a file, I opened Explorer and switched it to the Details view option. Between that and the folder hierarchy in the left pane, I guess it looked different enough from "My Computer" that my friend was used to and I was given the reaction "Wow, you're really in the guts of the machine, now."