4 ms·

4 hours on a 32-core modern CPU? If this isn’t the strongest indictment of browsers getting out of control with regards to features and complexity, I don’t know

4 hours on a 32-core modern CPU? If this isn’t the strongest indictment of browsers getting out of control with regards to features and complexity, I don’t know what is. Browsers are a window into the internet. Browsers should be simple enough to be implemented by a single person in a week. I want the web to be re-constructed from scratch starting with the TCP/IP stack all the way to gifs with modern hindsight.

iamstupidsimple 5y ago
GIFs alone would take more than a week for a single person. I think you are severely underestimating the necessary complexity.
LogonType10 5y ago
TCP/IP is not part of "the web".
- irq 5y ago
  It’s as much a part of the web as tires are parts of a car
1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
"Browsers should be simple enough to be implemented by a single person in a week." They are. It all depends on who defines what a "browser" is and what it can do. The browser I use as a "daily driver" is a 1.3M static binary. It is 5.7M of C code, including graphics stuff I do not utilise. It compiles in under a minute on a low-end computer. This browser allows me to "browse" hypertext. It displays HTML tables beautifully in textmode. I can download files. I can save HTML as formatted text. It supports FTP. The program has various settings for cache size, character set and so forth. I can script the browser using tmux. This browser is all I really need.^1 I read HTML then decide if I want to download or save something. Simple. What else is there, really. When I want to run programs I do not do that using this browser. I have separate compilers and interpeters for that. When I want to listen to audio or watch video, I do not try to listen or watch using this browser. I have separate programs for that. And so on. I do not try to live inside a single pogram. In every case of a non HTML-reading/saving or www/ftp browsing task, the separate programs do a better job than the browser could. If this sounds something like the "UNIX principle" maybe that is not a coincidence. Sure, we can take each of those individual programs and integrate them into a single program, and still call it a "browser" but why would anyone want to do that.^2 What is that concept in programming called "separation of concerns". Someone once called it "an ordering of one's thoughts". When people use browsers written by web advertising-supported organisations, then the "organisation of thoughts" is going to revolve around advertising (requisite tracking and personal data/metadata collection) and how to integrate it into the browser. When I use the text-only browser I choose, the ordering of thoughts is quite different. I see no advertising. Ever. I still consume the same amount of "content", maybe even more because this 1.3M browser is quite fast. 1. Major corporations operating on the web today, e.g., banks, can obviously force people to use certain browsers for business and important personal matters. For recreational web use, however, people can choose any browser. 2. The answer is not "For everyone's convenience and free enjoyment." That is why we have people trying to "un-google".
- amarshall 5y ago
  A lot of words without saying what “this browser” is. Is it lynx? Something else?
  - elteto 5y ago
    I doubt lynx is over 5M lines of code...
    - amarshall 5y ago
      It’s not, and neither is links (both are around 165 SLOC). Maybe what they meant was 5 MB of source code, but that’s not right either (even compressed the links source is bigger than that, though lynx isn’t, but who knows what version they’re using). I dunno. Without units it’s anyone’s guess.
  - 1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
    The browser is links, various versions of the 1.x series and 2.x series, with various personal changes. I used lynx in the late 90s. Honestly, as a 24/7 text-only browser user, I think lynx may be the worst of the text-only browsers. IMO, the fact that it is so often mentioned seems to suggest most folks who mention it are not using it much and/or are unfamiliar with the full range of alternatives. Usually the only reason someone asks "what browser" is so they can make snide comments about it, diverting the discussion away from the original point, which is that there are other browsers like this and it is possible to write them. As such it is usually against better judgment to respond. Let's see what happens this time. What I prefer is not the point. Every user is different. The point is that people have written other, smaller, simpler browsers, I am using one, and I am able to comment here and read every submitted website just like anyone else who is using Chromium or the like to do it.
    - smeyer 5y ago
      >Usually the only reason someone asks "what browser" is so they can make snide comments about it I wasn't the person who asked, but I was also wondering and appreciate your answer for non-snide reasons. Especially in the context of the larger thread it's nice to hear what people use.
omoikane 5y ago
If you just want a subset of the internet, Lynx builds in under a minute.
3np 5y ago
You may want to check out Urbit. It’s philosophy is not far from yours. For something less radical, Gemini
amarshall 5y ago
FWIW the 5950X has 16 cores (32 threads), not 32 cores as the poster indicated.

iamstupidsimple 5y ago

GIFs alone would take more than a week for a single person. I think you are severely underestimating the necessary complexity.

LogonType10 5y ago

TCP/IP is not part of "the web".

irq 5y ago
It’s as much a part of the web as tires are parts of a car

1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago

"Browsers should be simple enough to be implemented by a single person in a week." They are. It all depends on who defines what a "browser" is and what it can do. The browser I use as a "daily driver" is a 1.3M static binary. It is 5.7M of C code, including graphics stuff I do not utilise. It compiles in under a minute on a low-end computer. This browser allows me to "browse" hypertext. It displays HTML tables beautifully in textmode. I can download files. I can save HTML as formatted text. It supports FTP. The program has various settings for cache size, character set and so forth. I can script the browser using tmux. This browser is all I really need.^1 I read HTML then decide if I want to download or save something. Simple. What else is there, really. When I want to run programs I do not do that using this browser. I have separate compilers and interpeters for that. When I want to listen to audio or watch video, I do not try to listen or watch using this browser. I have separate programs for that. And so on. I do not try to live inside a single pogram. In every case of a non HTML-reading/saving or www/ftp browsing task, the separate programs do a better job than the browser could. If this sounds something like the "UNIX principle" maybe that is not a coincidence. Sure, we can take each of those individual programs and integrate them into a single program, and still call it a "browser" but why would anyone want to do that.^2 What is that concept in programming called "separation of concerns". Someone once called it "an ordering of one's thoughts". When people use browsers written by web advertising-supported organisations, then the "organisation of thoughts" is going to revolve around advertising (requisite tracking and personal data/metadata collection) and how to integrate it into the browser. When I use the text-only browser I choose, the ordering of thoughts is quite different. I see no advertising. Ever. I still consume the same amount of "content", maybe even more because this 1.3M browser is quite fast. 1. Major corporations operating on the web today, e.g., banks, can obviously force people to use certain browsers for business and important personal matters. For recreational web use, however, people can choose any browser. 2. The answer is not "For everyone's convenience and free enjoyment." That is why we have people trying to "un-google".

amarshall 5y ago
A lot of words without saying what “this browser” is. Is it lynx? Something else?
- elteto 5y ago
  I doubt lynx is over 5M lines of code...
  - amarshall 5y ago
    It’s not, and neither is links (both are around 165 SLOC). Maybe what they meant was 5 MB of source code, but that’s not right either (even compressed the links source is bigger than that, though lynx isn’t, but who knows what version they’re using). I dunno. Without units it’s anyone’s guess.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
  The browser is links, various versions of the 1.x series and 2.x series, with various personal changes. I used lynx in the late 90s. Honestly, as a 24/7 text-only browser user, I think lynx may be the worst of the text-only browsers. IMO, the fact that it is so often mentioned seems to suggest most folks who mention it are not using it much and/or are unfamiliar with the full range of alternatives. Usually the only reason someone asks "what browser" is so they can make snide comments about it, diverting the discussion away from the original point, which is that there are other browsers like this and it is possible to write them. As such it is usually against better judgment to respond. Let's see what happens this time. What I prefer is not the point. Every user is different. The point is that people have written other, smaller, simpler browsers, I am using one, and I am able to comment here and read every submitted website just like anyone else who is using Chromium or the like to do it.
  - smeyer 5y ago
    >Usually the only reason someone asks "what browser" is so they can make snide comments about it I wasn't the person who asked, but I was also wondering and appreciate your answer for non-snide reasons. Especially in the context of the larger thread it's nice to hear what people use.

omoikane 5y ago

If you just want a subset of the internet, Lynx builds in under a minute.

3np 5y ago

You may want to check out Urbit. It’s philosophy is not far from yours. For something less radical, Gemini

amarshall 5y ago

FWIW the 5950X has 16 cores (32 threads), not 32 cores as the poster indicated.