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Are US democrats actually progressive? Why would I support any politician when the available choices do not line up with my views and desires in almost any fas

Are US democrats actually progressive? Why would I support any politician when the available choices do not line up with my views and desires in almost any fashion

amalcon 5y ago
Because the available choices change their platforms in response to the voting public to some degree. By not voting, you send the message that they don't need to care what you want, since you don't vote. It's the same reason that it's so hard to get permission to build new housing in some places: the people who would most directly benefit don't vote (because they don't live there yet).
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  There's no way for me to give them feedback and tell them their views are shite by voting That doesn't make sense, votes are binary and do not contain any other information
  - dillondoyle 5y ago
    The feedback is you win or you loose. If you don't like someone vote for their opponent. Or a 3rd party if you really want. most of the politicians I work with will gladly change their positions on issues based on election results and polling. Gay marriage is a great and extreme recent example.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    To add to this point, voting for someone I don't support seems (from my perspective) to send a message that I do agree with them and support their views, even if I think they're just slightly less shitty than the other option
    - amalcon 5y ago
      Is that a better or worse message than "You don't need to care what I think"? If you think it's significantly worse, then fine, we disagree on that premise. If you think it's equal or better, then not showing up seems like an inefficient use of a rare resource (your vote).
      - 8note 5y ago
        Consistently voting(for the same party) or consistently not voting says nobody needs to care what you think. You're safe and predictable.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > There's no way for me to give them feedback and tell them their views are shite by voting Yes there are; voting isn't limited to general elections (or even primaries/caucuses for particular public offices.)
    - netizen-936824 5y ago
      And what, the good options are there? Not in my locales
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > And what, the good options are there? Yes. > Not in my locales Running for public or party office, or recruiting others to do so, is also an available form of engagement.
        netizen-936824 5y ago
        You are correct, but for someone who is heavily involved in academia I don't have the time to do so at the moment. It is something I consider periodically
  - amalcon 5y ago
    The vote itself might not contain other information, but there are plenty of out-of-band ways to convey this information. The opinion you express when you call, write, answer a poll, or really any other public activity is stronger if it's backed up by records that you consistently vote.
n8cpdx 5y ago
Democrats just passed the largest infrastructure spending bill in ages (including a huge push to get everyone broadband, among other great programs), are actively working on a massive boost to social spending, accomplished a trillion dollar relief package (direct payments) early on, and cut child poverty by nearly half (projected), all while dealing with a paper-thin majority in the senate. Within the realities of how the political system works, that’s pretty progressive. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/25/us-parents-child-tax-credit-biden-administration https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/25/us-parents-c... https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/11/06/fact-sheet-the-bipartisan-infrastructure-deal/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Rescue_Plan_Act_of_2021 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Rescue_Plan_Act_of_... ——— I was going to comment about how that’s a bad attitude and toxic approach to voting that gets us presidents like Donald Trump, which is all true. But I am starting to be really frustrated by the progressive meme that democrats haven’t accomplished anything and are just slightly less bad than republicans. Good stuff is happening, and you can choose to ignore it at the country’s peril. #Trump2024
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Democrats just passed the largest infrastructure spending bill in ages The Bipartisan Infrastructure Deal is not progressive; the progressive goals were either in BBB and require both BBB and BID, and center-right Democrats (including the leadership, by accommodating the more visibly hostile party members) threw away BBB by pushing BID separately contrary to commitments to do them together. > But I am starting to be really frustrated by the progressive meme that democrats haven’t accomplished anything Democrat have accomplished a lot recently that would have been no controversial during the peak of the bipartisan center-right neoliberal consensus, but very little—and arguably negative value—from a progressive standpoint. They’ve been significantly less negative than Republican domination would be, but even with the “significantly” qualifier, “not as bad as the people who goaded, aided, and continue to pander to the mob who stormed the Capitol chanting for the head of the VP from their own party for not being sufficiently supportive of arbitrary authoritarianism” is a pretty low bar. I mean I am a progressive Democrat whose first election was the first one Bill Clinton one, so I have the perspective of having seen quite a significant erosion of the power of the center-right power bloc in the Democratic Party in my period as an active participant in the process, so I am not going to argue against electoral engagement by progressives. But I am also tired as fuck of the center-right corporate conservatives in the Party trying to sell every success in advancing their agenda won by pulling the rug out from under progressives as somehow a win for progressives.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Are US democrats actually progressive? US progressives that aren't alienated from the political process tend to be Democrats (by voting behavior if not identity), but the reverse is not true; Democrats as a whole are a coalition of (mainly) progressives center-right corporate conservatives, the latter being somewhat more dominant, and many of them (Manchin and Sinema get a lot of attention recently, but the problem is much deeper) regularly ally with Republicans against progressives. > Why would I support any politician when the available choices do not line up with my views and desires in almost any fashion Engagement alters the available choices; engagement by (frequently disappointed) progressives has reduced the center-right domination of the Democratic Party from its peak in the 1990s.
sushisource 5y ago
Even ignoring the other quality replies to this comment, this just seems to me an insane viewpoint. It's kinda like saying "I'm starving, but I won't eat any of the food on this table because I don't like it". What? I can maybe see how this is reasonable if you don't vote but also spend significant time/money investing in trying to bring about candidates who you feel do represent what you want. But, most people with this opinion seem to simply do nothing. That's a pretty childish stance to take, it seems. As much as you might not like it, the reality is that you only have so many ways to influence things, so you should probably at least put the bare minimum effort in and vote. If you can't be assed to do that, well, I think you forfeit your right to complain about the situation.
- Miner49er 5y ago
  This isn't an accurate analogy. I'd say people who have this viewpoint view both parties as poison, not food. Maybe one is slightly less poisonous, but we'd rather have neither.
  - sushisource 5y ago
    Sure it's a loose analogy, but keeping with it: You're gonna starve either way. Might as well try to do something about that.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - foobar2021 5y ago
      “Eat our poison. It’s better for you”
  - Fnoord 5y ago
    But you're gonna have to eat one of these two dishes, and you can help deciding which ones best, even if both are terrible. Its like saying: I hate getting vaccinated but I'm not gonna join take part in a society being unvaccinated. But there's only these 2 practical choices. The other ones are niche (e.g. leaving society living in a treehut or a tundra, committing suicide, going to Mars for science -- these kind of extreme outliers). If I were American (ie. read US citizen), I'd never discount any of the dishes. After all, there's only two practical choices... ..which, despite all the current issues, makes me happy I got more than two in The Netherlands. But it also gives me compassion that Americans, given they only got two. What a system...
allemagne 5y ago
We do not have to wait for a perfect political system in order to express the small amount of political power we have in this one. I simply do not believe you if you think literally all politicians you can vote for are equidistant from your views and desires. Nobody is smart, careful, or powerful enough to wholesale rig elections in the U.S, if that's what you're going to say next. If you really care about changing the politicians you get to vote for, then the easiest way to help change that is to hold your nose and vote in every election.
dillondoyle 5y ago
Yeah that's one of the views I think helps drive this 'dejectedness' and 'complacency'! That's for sure a valid opinion, I personally think most elected Dems are too conservative - the problem is lots of them are elected in relatively conservative states. Not all. Erm erm Diane Feinstein. But many. Manchin for instance would never get elected if they held even 10% of AOC's viewpoints. But to not vote or to not work for the election of Dems because they don't line up with your views completely ignores that if those not as liberal as you want Dems don't get elected even more polar opposite to your viewpoint Republicans will fill their place. I'm not sure I'm making describing my thoughts well. but do you really think a Ted Cruz type Republican's views are not less aligned with your views than say a moderate Dem? If you believe in a more balanced majoritarian senate (reasonable arguments for it not being one) we need DC as a state to help even out the Senate. maybe if liberals keep decamping from large coastal cities it might make lower population R states more competitive.

Are US democrats actually progressive? Why would I support any politician when the available choices do not line up with my views and desires in almost any fashion

amalcon 5y ago

Because the available choices change their platforms in response to the voting public to some degree. By not voting, you send the message that they don't need to care what you want, since you don't vote. It's the same reason that it's so hard to get permission to build new housing in some places: the people who would most directly benefit don't vote (because they don't live there yet).

netizen-936824 5y ago
There's no way for me to give them feedback and tell them their views are shite by voting That doesn't make sense, votes are binary and do not contain any other information
- dillondoyle 5y ago
  The feedback is you win or you loose. If you don't like someone vote for their opponent. Or a 3rd party if you really want. most of the politicians I work with will gladly change their positions on issues based on election results and polling. Gay marriage is a great and extreme recent example.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  To add to this point, voting for someone I don't support seems (from my perspective) to send a message that I do agree with them and support their views, even if I think they're just slightly less shitty than the other option
  - amalcon 5y ago
    Is that a better or worse message than "You don't need to care what I think"? If you think it's significantly worse, then fine, we disagree on that premise. If you think it's equal or better, then not showing up seems like an inefficient use of a rare resource (your vote).
    - 8note 5y ago
      Consistently voting(for the same party) or consistently not voting says nobody needs to care what you think. You're safe and predictable.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > There's no way for me to give them feedback and tell them their views are shite by voting Yes there are; voting isn't limited to general elections (or even primaries/caucuses for particular public offices.)
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    And what, the good options are there? Not in my locales
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > And what, the good options are there? Yes. > Not in my locales Running for public or party office, or recruiting others to do so, is also an available form of engagement.
      - netizen-936824 5y ago
        You are correct, but for someone who is heavily involved in academia I don't have the time to do so at the moment. It is something I consider periodically
- amalcon 5y ago
  The vote itself might not contain other information, but there are plenty of out-of-band ways to convey this information. The opinion you express when you call, write, answer a poll, or really any other public activity is stronger if it's backed up by records that you consistently vote.

n8cpdx 5y ago

Democrats just passed the largest infrastructure spending bill in ages (including a huge push to get everyone broadband, among other great programs), are actively working on a massive boost to social spending, accomplished a trillion dollar relief package (direct payments) early on, and cut child poverty by nearly half (projected), all while dealing with a paper-thin majority in the senate. Within the realities of how the political system works, that’s pretty progressive. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/25/us-parents-child-tax-credit-biden-administration https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/25/us-parents-c... https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/11/06/fact-sheet-the-bipartisan-infrastructure-deal/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Rescue_Plan_Act_of_2021 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Rescue_Plan_Act_of_... ——— I was going to comment about how that’s a bad attitude and toxic approach to voting that gets us presidents like Donald Trump, which is all true. But I am starting to be really frustrated by the progressive meme that democrats haven’t accomplished anything and are just slightly less bad than republicans. Good stuff is happening, and you can choose to ignore it at the country’s peril. #Trump2024

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Democrats just passed the largest infrastructure spending bill in ages The Bipartisan Infrastructure Deal is not progressive; the progressive goals were either in BBB and require both BBB and BID, and center-right Democrats (including the leadership, by accommodating the more visibly hostile party members) threw away BBB by pushing BID separately contrary to commitments to do them together. > But I am starting to be really frustrated by the progressive meme that democrats haven’t accomplished anything Democrat have accomplished a lot recently that would have been no controversial during the peak of the bipartisan center-right neoliberal consensus, but very little—and arguably negative value—from a progressive standpoint. They’ve been significantly less negative than Republican domination would be, but even with the “significantly” qualifier, “not as bad as the people who goaded, aided, and continue to pander to the mob who stormed the Capitol chanting for the head of the VP from their own party for not being sufficiently supportive of arbitrary authoritarianism” is a pretty low bar. I mean I am a progressive Democrat whose first election was the first one Bill Clinton one, so I have the perspective of having seen quite a significant erosion of the power of the center-right power bloc in the Democratic Party in my period as an active participant in the process, so I am not going to argue against electoral engagement by progressives. But I am also tired as fuck of the center-right corporate conservatives in the Party trying to sell every success in advancing their agenda won by pulling the rug out from under progressives as somehow a win for progressives.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Are US democrats actually progressive? US progressives that aren't alienated from the political process tend to be Democrats (by voting behavior if not identity), but the reverse is not true; Democrats as a whole are a coalition of (mainly) progressives center-right corporate conservatives, the latter being somewhat more dominant, and many of them (Manchin and Sinema get a lot of attention recently, but the problem is much deeper) regularly ally with Republicans against progressives. > Why would I support any politician when the available choices do not line up with my views and desires in almost any fashion Engagement alters the available choices; engagement by (frequently disappointed) progressives has reduced the center-right domination of the Democratic Party from its peak in the 1990s.

sushisource 5y ago

Even ignoring the other quality replies to this comment, this just seems to me an insane viewpoint. It's kinda like saying "I'm starving, but I won't eat any of the food on this table because I don't like it". What? I can maybe see how this is reasonable if you don't vote but also spend significant time/money investing in trying to bring about candidates who you feel do represent what you want. But, most people with this opinion seem to simply do nothing. That's a pretty childish stance to take, it seems. As much as you might not like it, the reality is that you only have so many ways to influence things, so you should probably at least put the bare minimum effort in and vote. If you can't be assed to do that, well, I think you forfeit your right to complain about the situation.

Miner49er 5y ago
This isn't an accurate analogy. I'd say people who have this viewpoint view both parties as poison, not food. Maybe one is slightly less poisonous, but we'd rather have neither.
- sushisource 5y ago
  Sure it's a loose analogy, but keeping with it: You're gonna starve either way. Might as well try to do something about that.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - foobar2021 5y ago
    “Eat our poison. It’s better for you”
- Fnoord 5y ago
  But you're gonna have to eat one of these two dishes, and you can help deciding which ones best, even if both are terrible. Its like saying: I hate getting vaccinated but I'm not gonna join take part in a society being unvaccinated. But there's only these 2 practical choices. The other ones are niche (e.g. leaving society living in a treehut or a tundra, committing suicide, going to Mars for science -- these kind of extreme outliers). If I were American (ie. read US citizen), I'd never discount any of the dishes. After all, there's only two practical choices... ..which, despite all the current issues, makes me happy I got more than two in The Netherlands. But it also gives me compassion that Americans, given they only got two. What a system...

allemagne 5y ago

We do not have to wait for a perfect political system in order to express the small amount of political power we have in this one. I simply do not believe you if you think literally all politicians you can vote for are equidistant from your views and desires. Nobody is smart, careful, or powerful enough to wholesale rig elections in the U.S, if that's what you're going to say next. If you really care about changing the politicians you get to vote for, then the easiest way to help change that is to hold your nose and vote in every election.

dillondoyle 5y ago

Yeah that's one of the views I think helps drive this 'dejectedness' and 'complacency'! That's for sure a valid opinion, I personally think most elected Dems are too conservative - the problem is lots of them are elected in relatively conservative states. Not all. Erm erm Diane Feinstein. But many. Manchin for instance would never get elected if they held even 10% of AOC's viewpoints. But to not vote or to not work for the election of Dems because they don't line up with your views completely ignores that if those not as liberal as you want Dems don't get elected even more polar opposite to your viewpoint Republicans will fill their place. I'm not sure I'm making describing my thoughts well. but do you really think a Ted Cruz type Republican's views are not less aligned with your views than say a moderate Dem? If you believe in a more balanced majoritarian senate (reasonable arguments for it not being one) we need DC as a state to help even out the Senate. maybe if liberals keep decamping from large coastal cities it might make lower population R states more competitive.