3 ms·

Excellent point. A lot of focus is on pilots, but the safety chain was also weak. Maint, communication with flight dept, communication to subsequent pilots etc

Excellent point. A lot of focus is on pilots, but the safety chain was also weak. Maint, communication with flight dept, communication to subsequent pilots etc, training dept and required experience / education to fly. Not a good combo. Someone with 200 hrs of time, plane badly maintained, no good handoff around prior issues etc. I still think Boeings safety model with humans as the backup for computers probably doesn't work in a world where a large majority of pilots lean on fully fly by wire (computerized) planes. Someone with 240 hours, a bunch of that just sim time - can they hand fly a plane in its entire envelope? This is where Boeing sounded really tone deaf. They built a model around humans as backup, a very US centric model (ie, folks with tons of general aviation experience just as a hobby from young ages, military flight experience etc) which was not really appropriate here.

sokoloff 5y ago
There’s a genuine question as to whether someone with 240 hours should be holding the yoke of a jet airliner. For me, that answer is “hell no!” as we saw in Colgan 3407 (and others) which led to the FAA 1500-hour minimum for an ATP. At 240 hours, I couldn’t be trusted with a Bonanza.
- slownews45 5y ago
  Yes, in the US we (now) think of 250 as too low. 1,500 is pretty dang high. Persoanlly, 500 - 1000 wouldn't be unreasonable in my view. Major airlines might still be at 3,000+ hours. Remember, it used to be in the US you could also fly as a FO with a commercial pilots license at 250 hours! FAA Commercial Pilot is 250 (50 of which need to be in powered airplane). https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/active-pilots/safety-and-technique/operations/commercial-pilot-certificate https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/active-pilots/safet... 50 hours behind the actual yoke? 200 lives 30,000 feet in the air? Overseas, some of the cadet / local pilot programs - you get pretty low time and/or connected pilots into the seat. "The committee noted that these deficiencies had been identified previously in training and reemerged during the accident flight. When the MCAS activated, it took the first officer four minutes to locate the proper checklist because he wasn’t familiar with required memory items. During training, the same pilot had shown unfamiliarity with Boeing and airline standard operating procedures and had weak aircraft handling skills, the report revealed. His training record reflected numerous deficiencies, including “major problems” controlling the aircraft." There is a reason Boeing initially said there might have been some pilot factors. They look at that memory item checklist, and think, trim problem, stab cutout memory item. In the US they have Capt Sully (glider / fighter pilots, lots of experience, with a strong FO) gliding a plane with two engines out to a safe landing. So human in the loop kind of works in the US. Could you program a computer for that? Probably, but not there yet. That said, I still blame Boeing to a large degree. If you are going to sell new planes to countries that have this type of system, you must design the plane for purpose. Ie, low time pilots who struggle / are connected / can't be fired etc - you don't then design the plane assuming the human in the loop will have hand flying ability to step in. That was pure greed, roll out this type of plane in the US / EU / UK etc. Good maintenance, good safety reporting systems (ASAP etc) work out the kinks, then go overseas. First Max 8 to Malindo air!!? Really?? They really need to get to airbus and beyond envelope protection etc in these markets. I'm also curious about checkrides overseas. Stuff like engine out on takeoff etc is just hammered into folks in the US.

sokoloff 5y ago

There’s a genuine question as to whether someone with 240 hours should be holding the yoke of a jet airliner. For me, that answer is “hell no!” as we saw in Colgan 3407 (and others) which led to the FAA 1500-hour minimum for an ATP. At 240 hours, I couldn’t be trusted with a Bonanza.

slownews45 5y ago
Yes, in the US we (now) think of 250 as too low. 1,500 is pretty dang high. Persoanlly, 500 - 1000 wouldn't be unreasonable in my view. Major airlines might still be at 3,000+ hours. Remember, it used to be in the US you could also fly as a FO with a commercial pilots license at 250 hours! FAA Commercial Pilot is 250 (50 of which need to be in powered airplane). https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/active-pilots/safety-and-technique/operations/commercial-pilot-certificate https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/active-pilots/safet... 50 hours behind the actual yoke? 200 lives 30,000 feet in the air? Overseas, some of the cadet / local pilot programs - you get pretty low time and/or connected pilots into the seat. "The committee noted that these deficiencies had been identified previously in training and reemerged during the accident flight. When the MCAS activated, it took the first officer four minutes to locate the proper checklist because he wasn’t familiar with required memory items. During training, the same pilot had shown unfamiliarity with Boeing and airline standard operating procedures and had weak aircraft handling skills, the report revealed. His training record reflected numerous deficiencies, including “major problems” controlling the aircraft." There is a reason Boeing initially said there might have been some pilot factors. They look at that memory item checklist, and think, trim problem, stab cutout memory item. In the US they have Capt Sully (glider / fighter pilots, lots of experience, with a strong FO) gliding a plane with two engines out to a safe landing. So human in the loop kind of works in the US. Could you program a computer for that? Probably, but not there yet. That said, I still blame Boeing to a large degree. If you are going to sell new planes to countries that have this type of system, you must design the plane for purpose. Ie, low time pilots who struggle / are connected / can't be fired etc - you don't then design the plane assuming the human in the loop will have hand flying ability to step in. That was pure greed, roll out this type of plane in the US / EU / UK etc. Good maintenance, good safety reporting systems (ASAP etc) work out the kinks, then go overseas. First Max 8 to Malindo air!!? Really?? They really need to get to airbus and beyond envelope protection etc in these markets. I'm also curious about checkrides overseas. Stuff like engine out on takeoff etc is just hammered into folks in the US.